THE MODERN VILLAGE with CALLIE LONGENECKER | Cultivating Community, Nourishment, Rest, + Play as Women

EP. 14

[00:00:00] Kelsey: Welcome to Planet Spoonie, the podcast for Limeys and Spoonies healing themselves and the world. In this compassionate and collective space, we learn all about the foundations of truly holistic living. Traditional nutrition, herbal medicine, nature connection, and everything in between. These are the same foundations that have helped me rediscover the magic, wisdom, and innate healing capacity of my own body and the body of the earth.

[00:00:26] Even while living with chronic illness in the time of the climate crisis. I'm your host, Kelsey the Herbalist. Let's dig in. Today I am so excited. We have an especially brilliant and beautiful guest, Callie, who is here with us, and I am so happy for you all to virtually meet her. She is a professional chef, clinical herbalist, and nutritionist.

[00:00:48] Birth in postpartum doula and the founder of Earthen hands a mother centered organic skincare brand Crafted with botanicals and food based ingredients. Callie is based out of colorado She is a mom herself And she has so much wisdom to share in this episode that really applies to everyone but is especially here for women who Are either mamas to be or who have gone through pregnancy for anyone who Has lived with chronic illness and the struggles that come with that.

[00:01:20] She does a lot of postpartum and mother centered work, as I mentioned before. But this so applies to people living with chronic illness as well as you will hear throughout the episode there are so so many similarities between These two experiences and many women experience both So I'm really happy for you all to listen to this and without further ado.

[00:01:45] Let's get into it Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Thank you Yay. So I know we have talked before, but since the audience, the listeners have not met you before, maybe, possibly, tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you and what do you do? 

[00:02:06] Callie: Okay, so yeah, I'm Callie. I'm a postpartum and birth doula.

[00:02:14] I'm a chef, a clinical herbalist and nutritionist. I'm also a mother and I just recently founded a brand, Earthen Hands, which is a mother centered skincare brand for mothers and babies. Yeah, that's what I do. 

[00:02:31] Kelsey: That's amazing. You wear many hats. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about how You got into this world.

[00:02:42] There's so many pieces there, but let's just start with food and herbs. How did you get into this whole world of herbalism and being a chef, but also a nutritionist? 

[00:02:54] Callie: Totally. I think it was like a lot of little things starting from a really young age that sort of built up to the passion. Because I know for a lot of people, it's like there's one moment that marks this awakening or this sort of coming into what you want to be.

[00:03:14] But I think from the youngest age, just like growing up, being in the kitchen and liking to cook and looking through cookbooks and food magazines with my sisters that sort of sparked my love for food and cooking. And I just always like being creative in the kitchen. And yeah, I wasn't ever planning to be a chef or go to culinary school, but that sort of happened after I went to herbalism school and the love for herbalism started when I was in my teens and I was just having some health issues and I'd had a lot of horseback riding accidents, as I'm sure, not fun.

[00:03:53] Yeah. It's very challenging being a horse lover. So anyways, yes, it's hard on us. But yeah, I had a lot of. Back and hip issues and tailbone issues and so many falls and was hospitalized a lot with my riding accidents because I was jumping and showing and just being risky. So that sort of led me to herbalism and nutrition because I was like, wow, I'm 15 and I don't feel good.

[00:04:24] And I'm having a hard time with like my hips and my joints and my muscles. And I can't. Do this going into my twenties and thirties and forties what's that going to be like? So that really got me interested in nutrition and herbalism. And that's when I decided I really wanted to pursue that more for myself, just to understand how to take care of my body and still be happy.

[00:04:53] As I age, so that's 

[00:04:55] Kelsey: amazing. I didn't know this. Yeah. Your story. And so there's a whole new world of questions just opened up, but yeah I'll let you finish, but I definitely want to go back to that because I'm curious about some of the things that you maybe did to support yourself through those injuries.

[00:05:14] For 

[00:05:14] Callie: sure. Yeah, I, 15 was a really big year for me, my early teens, because that was when I witnessed my first birth, the birth of my youngest sister. And that was another piece too, where my soul was like, Ooh, this is a spark. This is something I want to harness and do forever. And I was my mom's doula for her birth and I also was her postpartum doula.

[00:05:40] I cooked for her and made all of these herbal teas because at the time that was also the age I was. I was looking more into health. I was reading every herbal book I could get my hand on. I was apprenticing an herbalist who was local. She was like this old grandmother and I would work in her basement and organize tinctures and do her computer work.

[00:06:00] And then in return, I was getting herbs and tinctures and all kinds of concoctions and treatments from her that she did. So all of that combined together. Yeah, it was amazing to be already so infused in that work in my teens. So yeah, taking all of those little pieces, I knew I wanted to do something with women.

[00:06:24] I wanted to do something with food and I always wanted herbalism to be in there too. 

[00:06:30] Kelsey: That is so beautiful and amazing that you started at such a young age and in such a kind of idyllic setting and format to be working with an elder in that way and really immersed in everything and then able to take it home and apply it to your own health issues that were going on, but also your mom and your baby sister.

[00:06:53] That's so sweet. 

[00:06:55] Callie: Totally. Yeah. It was such a great opportunity to have. And I knew. from a young age to that institutionalized learning would not be for me. It wasn't going to be the normal average girl that goes to college and pursues the degree and does a four or eight year program. I just knew that couldn't fit me.

[00:07:16] Yeah, pursuing a trade schools route was really the way to go and also apprenticeship programs and things. But yeah, then obviously I moved out here to Colorado and went to the Colorado school of clinical herbalism. And then after that, I went to culinary school and in there. And during that time, I also got my doula certifications.

[00:07:39] Kelsey: Oh my goodness. That is so many things at once. How do you feel? Because I think so, so many people who listen to this are like complete and total beginners when it comes to herbal medicine, especially. How do you feel like learning both herbalism and nutrition simultaneously and working with those two modalities feeds and layers off of one 

[00:08:02] Callie: another?

[00:08:04] I think you can't have one without the other. I think it's they need each other. Because without herbalism, our food system, we do not have a great food system, especially in America. So I feel like we really need our botanical allies and our plant friends, but also just herbalism and Doing all of these teas and tinctures and thinking that it's going to save you isn't going to work on its own either.

[00:08:32] You still need food and not only a clean, high quality diet with a variety of foods, but also the mindset around food that It's supposed to be for enjoyment. It's supposed to be this beautiful, connecting, soulful experience and not just this rigorous, this is what I have to eat to heal myself from X, Y, and Z because that's a trap too.

[00:08:55] And then the mentality with that becomes a cage and that's not healing at all. 

[00:09:00] Kelsey: Yeah, we talked about this. I don't know when that was a few weeks or months ago, somewhere in there. But that trap that's so common, especially in like the holistic wellness world of thinking that there is this perfect diet, often like some ideal that idealized version of the way people used to live.

[00:09:22] And It is such a trap, because there is no such thing as perfect, and I love that you talk about that, and we'll share your Instagram info, of course, on in the show notes, but for anyone who doesn't follow Callie, please do, because you post the most beautiful baked goods and delicious treats and desserts, and I feel like that is so important for people to see, because I think Bye.

[00:09:48] Bye. Bye. Yeah, there's this misconception that like you can't eat those things or those things are bad or yeah, and it's really just not helpful for anyone because you can't eat your way into some perfect body that doesn't have any problems. It's just not how the world works. 

[00:10:07] Callie: Absolutely. Yeah it's such an interesting balance to because when I had my son, I thought I would be way more strict about.

[00:10:16] food and just feeding him the best of the best and I actually went the other way not that I lost care or anything I just I relaxed more because I realized like I don't know. He's taught me life can be more playful, more fun, and it's short. Like he's already, he's going to be two in just a couple of weeks.

[00:10:40] And I'm like, yeah, it goes by really fast. So this stress and energy that we put towards something that is really huge. We all rely on food. We wouldn't be here without it. So it needs to be approached with more layfulness and more. Creativity and while it is serious, it's like you always with everything, motherhood, food, life in general, it's this balance of there's a seriousness to it, but also just.

[00:11:12] Be silly and have fun and play with it and Be artful with it. It doesn't have to be this life or death situation. But I think sometimes we look at it with, it's this very extreme lens that you can look through food with and everything with, I did this with like childbirth and, of course food and nutrition and all of that, my health.

[00:11:37] It was Like this really serious thing to me that had to be exactly this one way, or else it was wrong and I was doing it wrong, but yeah, motherhood really shatters all of that for you. And you're just like, no everybody is really on their own unique story and their own unique path with everything.

[00:11:57] And everything is multi layered too. So you have to follow your own flow. And my flow is just like letting go more. I love that. 

[00:12:08] Kelsey: That's so important. And it reminds me of the symmetry almost of going through pregnancy and the postpartum period and living with chronic illness because like we've talked about before, there are so many unexpected similarities and That has really been my experience with chronic illness as well and healing Lyme is there are so many out there who will say there is a right way.

[00:12:34] This is how you heal it. You've got to be strict. But the truth is at the end of the day, if there isn't joy and play and pleasure, like you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle. That's just that's so important to healing and living a good life. And yeah, caring for yourself and your family. Yes. I definitely am curious about different aspects of your thoughts on the postpartum period and how much more support moms and families need through this.

[00:13:07] Can you share anything that you wish people understood about both pregnancy and the fourth trimester moving through, yeah, moving through that? Yes. 

[00:13:19] Callie: So one thing that became so clear to me After going through these processes myself and embarking on the journeys of pregnancy, birth, postpartum myself, is that it's very hard and unnatural to do in this society that we're under this capitalistic patriarchal society doing childbirth and postpartum underneath that is it's unnatural.

[00:13:49] It's not correct. So I think going into it and now my approach is so different with that understanding, because I just saw like in the postpartum, it's oh wow, yeah, society does not support mothers in this at all. And even though I had a tight little community and my family that was very supportive, like the world as a whole and society as a whole does not value the process.

[00:14:16] And does not value mothers to be at the center of life. So without mothers at the center of life, there is no life. It's just, it's distorted and it's dysfunctional. So that just became so clear. That was like, yeah, It's really scary to be like a mother in this climate, because we definitely have to start making the changes to reverse this patriarchal, man made, distorted view of what a woman even is, and what birth even is.

[00:14:50] Because Yeah, it's only getting harder and harder. And even my mom said like watching me give birth, cause she was at my birth and then my postpartum, she was like, wow, this is harder than I remembered and it could be also too, watching your own child go through that is really hard, but yeah, but the lack of.

[00:15:13] A system being in place that loves and values and honors mothers is like the most basic postpartum support and the most basic human right to come into this world being welcomed as a child and also to come into motherhood being welcomed into that new role. So Yeah, there's a lot of systemic issues that need absolutely torn down and rebuilt in a different way because there's no repairing the system that we currently have.

[00:15:45] It works the way it wants to and it's not changing. We have to get rid of it. So I see a lot of women doing that work, which is incredible. And we need more men doing that work too, because they're also responsible for this. But I am grateful to see the postpartum work and the pregnancy work going on.

[00:16:03] That's going on today because it certainly wasn't even happening five, ten years ago. We have made steps and strides. But I think we just really have to keep that momentum and fire going. And we as women have to stay connected and united in motherhood. Because even this patriarchal, capitalistic threat is it's threaded its way into motherhood where we're all competing against each other for who's the better mom and who breastfed for longer and who did this and who had a natural birth at home and yeah that doesn't matter at the end of the day what matters is that we are holding hands through our motherhood experiences and everything has to be rooted in that unified.

[00:16:46] Love and that infinite love or else it's just meaningless. So starting with obviously a much larger issue, I think it goes so deep. It just really goes so deep. This whole journey through motherhood is it's so potent and so much becomes so much more clear. Once you have that lens of going through it yourself and seeing what it's like to do motherhood in this current world we're in.

[00:17:19] But on top of that too, like women really just have to repair the bonds with each other because that's the only way we're going to make it. As if we have each other and with each other, we are stronger with each other. We have way more resources. We have more stories to pull from. We have more experience when we're together.

[00:17:40] And that's the stuff that really gets you through postpartum. Obviously there are so many herbs and so many healing foods, which I've always focused on within my own postpartum practice for my clients. But the thing that's lacking and the thing that's needed more than anything It's your fellow women, and we've been so separated from each other.

[00:18:04] Kelsey: Ah, it's so true, there are so many. Interesting amazing pieces in what you just said, but it really makes me think about what we've talked about before this forced individualism like we're all supposed to be a man on his own island and especially mothers are expected to just be able to thrive and do it all at home and go back to work six weeks later and still do it all and be there for the baby and It really, and it goes to this idea that you talk about of the modern village, like in thinking about, we know traditionally pre pre agriculture that people always lived in a collective and spent time together and babies were constantly being held by different people within the family or within the village or the community and This complete shift to expecting every nuclear family to just operate on their own little island and do it all alone.

[00:19:04] I feel like that it's such an unreasonable expectation to put on someone and to put on mothers to take on so much like it seems literally 

[00:19:14] Callie: impossible. Yeah, it is. And that's why postpartum depression and postpartum suicide is at an all time high because mothers are realizing the impossibilities that modern motherhood really does hold.

[00:19:31] It is It's a game that is not meant to be won in this system and the fact that it's even a game is wrong because that is, that it's a very patriarchal concept is playing a game and winning. And I'm not trying to play any games in motherhood. I'm not trying to win anything. I just want to be, I want to live.

[00:19:52] I want to thrive and I want to be happy and I want to feel loved and I want to feel supported and I want to see my child grow and thrive and. Be nourished and happy as well. And it's not something I'm trying to play or to win. So the way that everything is fun, it's just through such a different reality.

[00:20:13] But it's not true reality. It's not. And I think every woman knows that we definitely can sense that something is so off and so wrong. Yeah, 

[00:20:25] Kelsey: It's the the myth of social Darwinism, the idea that it's about it's a dog eat dog world and you've got to compete to survive when that's like the tiniest sliver of the pie.

[00:20:36] It's all about collaboration and connection and community and especially women have, we have been such so conditioned and targeted. To compete with one another to fit into the Patriarchy and to please men and really for our like literal survival to, yeah, to get by and it's it is so beautiful to see just how the feminine feminism movement is unfolding and how women are all about empowering women and there is such a sense of kind of camaraderie and sisterhood that is coming out of this, but it we have a long way to go.

[00:21:17] Callie: Absolutely. Yeah. Feminism right now is it's literally just the baby steps and there's so much unpacking to do with everything we've been conditioned with, because even within feminism, there's still so much patriarchal infusion because that is the only way it could be so successful is if there still is a little.

[00:21:41] Bit of patriarchy in there and there's still a little bit of male control and male dominance in there. So there's so much work to do. There's miles to go miles and miles to go. It's 

[00:21:53] Kelsey: so true, but it's so beautiful seeing what you're doing with your work. I don't know if you want to share some about what you are doing with earth and hands and kind of some of the different.

[00:22:05] Products and things you have available right now. I love your female Friday friendship posts, by the way. Those were just like, so sweet and inspiring. I 

[00:22:13] Callie: love seeing those. Thank you. Yes. Earthen hands is more than a brand. It's a community. And so I'm a really aiming to expand that vision this year.

[00:22:27] That's one of my goals. Just to. Bring the awareness to not only mothers, but women, regardless of if you're a childbearing woman or not it's about uniting women through this experience of being creators and being life givers, because you can create and give life in ways that Either make more humans or in ways that don't make more humans, the choice is up to you.

[00:22:53] But yeah I'm hoping to expand with more skincare products to that. Nurture, obviously all women, you don't have to be pregnant or postpartum to use them, but the emphasis is on pregnancy and postpartum and nourishing that time, since that is just lacking so much in our society. But within the brand I eventually want to get a platform online where women can connect whether you're thinking about having a baby or whether you've had a baby, it's a place to gather resources and a place to gather stories and wisdom because women offer that to each other.

[00:23:30] That's what we do. We give and yeah, like creating that sisterhood because As we've talked about before too, like we're not going backwards. We're not going back to some little village where we wear peasant skirts and carry baskets and fetch our water at the well, like that's not happening. And I don't want that village.

[00:23:48] Like that's sounds so hard. I do love technology and I love moving forward with that. I think it's advancements are great and I'm here for that. And within those advancements, we also have to remember. The world and the earth and our connection to who we really are and what we really are and why we're here and what this is all about.

[00:24:10] Because obviously technology can carry you off to a place that isn't even human anymore. So that's not the goal, but the goal is to stick with the times and not be angry about them, but to move forward with them. In the right heart and in a way that can help us thrive and flourish because yeah, we're not going back.

[00:24:30] So I want to really create a modern village where women are staying connected and that's what the female friendship Friday is all about. Just every Friday, once a week, thinking about a woman you love and letting her know that letting her know that you're thinking about her. Letting her know that she's valued in your life and she holds a place in your life.

[00:24:52] And I think just those baby steps just ripple into larger things. And when women feel that support and love from afar, it just reminds us of how powerful we actually are when we're together. Yeah there's a lot more coming new products. Hopefully much more expansion. And right now it's just me, but I would love to, to have somebody else join the team eventually.

[00:25:21] But I will be getting funding for it as well and looking for investors. Yeah, there's a lot coming with the brand. 

[00:25:30] Kelsey: That's so exciting. And you just, didn't you just release an herbal ebook for people and families who want to learn herbal 

[00:25:36] Callie: medicine? Yep I had been working on a cookbook and, long story short, that didn't work out, so I I just created this herbal medicine ebook to basically just offer foundations to herbalism and herbal medicine, whether you're a complete beginner or whether you're A little knowledgeable with within the herbalism realms.

[00:26:02] There's something in it for everyone to learn and just home remedies that you can make. Within your own kitchen using all your kitchen supplies and a lot of your herbs that you probably already have in your spice cabinet, but yeah, it also branches out into like more of the really medicinal herbs that are for specific things and how to apply those for children, men, women.

[00:26:27] So yeah, I'm excited about that. 

[00:26:31] Kelsey: That's so fun. There is there truly is something really special about gifting or giving support to new moms or soon to be moms in whatever way with little baby herbal packages. And I have a family member that we'll be having a baby and I'm not sure her exact due date sometime in the spring and got her a little diffuser and then I'm like choosing between which baby book that gives recipes for how to work with essential oils with your baby and kids.

[00:27:06] This is really everyone so fun to work with herbs, but children especially because they're so responsive. 

[00:27:13] Callie: I agree and their bodies are so quick and resilient and I love utilizing herbs with my son because I'm watching them work together in this way. That's so powerful and I just feel like him and the plants.

[00:27:35] They just get each other and they know quickly what to do. But even the other day he fell on this like little, it was like this wooden corner and he scraped his arm and it was one of those scrapes that it was very minor, but it looked like it burned. So I just made like a little honey compress with warm honey water and added some tinctures like Just cleansing, like echinacea, golden seal, a little bit of sage, and what else are in there?

[00:28:10] Oh, lemon balm, and yeah, just did a little warm compress, and by that night, the scratch was like completely covered with new skin, like it had regenerated already, and the next day it was just this tiny little pink, like barely there, and I was like, wow, like a baby's body coupled with. Powerful healing plants is absolutely magic.

[00:28:38] So I love watching that for him. That is. And just being reminded. And it's so great to have. 

[00:28:47] Kelsey: That's one of the beautiful things too, is just having that in your toolbox that like you have the option of, okay, I want herbs or I want neosporin or I want both. Like it's it's just so empowering to have all of the tools laid out for you to 

[00:29:03] Callie: choose.

[00:29:04] Yes, and it's so important as mothers, too, because there is this heightened anxiety and fear that comes with having a child because you're always worried about them and thinking about them, even if something minor happens, like a scrape, you're thinking about that okay, and what if it gets infected and, travels to his brain, you think of all these terrible things when you're a mother, It's like anxiety to the max.

[00:29:29] So just knowing that I always have something at home that I can do to make me feel better even and to give him that extra support and that extra love to whatever, he's going through and whatever his body's dealing with. It's so comforting because it just makes me feel like, okay, we're equipped to do anything.

[00:29:50] I can handle anything that comes my way and. Obviously there are emergency situations and, things where you need extra medical assistance, but for the most part, so much can be taken care of in the comfort of your own home. 

[00:30:05] Kelsey: It's, it is so completely true. It makes me wonder about some of the either herbs or foods or community pieces.

[00:30:15] What were some of the things that you felt were most impactful for you? During your postpartum period and moving through that with as much ease as one possibly can. 

[00:30:28] Callie: Yeah. Baths were really important to me. Postpartum, I took six baths every day and also like long hot baths with tons of herbs, really salty, sagey baths.

[00:30:43] And I love sage in postpartum topically, not internally, cause that can decrease your milk supply. Like really anything minty obviously isn't good for when you're breastfeeding. But doing like sage baths and sage postpartum sits baths. Just so obviously sage is energetically very clearing and cleansing, and it just has that ability to bring you more clarity and wipe off and clean you of whatever experience you just went through, which I really needed.

[00:31:17] Cause I felt like for me, birth was just so open and. Strong, like strongly open that I couldn't feel like it was finished for months after I gave birth. It was like, I'm still in the birthing space. And it's no, I needed that to, to close down. I needed that to end. I needed to feel like I'm done with labor.

[00:31:43] I'm done with birth. My baby's here. I can now just be in postpartum. But I was still having a lot of birth anxiety just because of when there's trauma that happens within labor, within birth, that stuff can really stick. So having sage and those sagey salty baths really helped clear my body of that.

[00:32:04] And also just my energy. So yeah, lots of baths. And of course that helps with tearing and herbs like comfrey and elderflower and yarrow witch hazel. Those were all, all in my baths at that time too. And then I did a lot of astragalus after I gave birth because it was so cold when I gave birth to my son in February and we get a lot of snow.

[00:32:37] In February, as so I was just, my feet were always cold. My hands were always cold. And, when you're postpartum, you're breastfeeding and your body's just out all the time. And so being warm and stimulating yeah, like my immune system and my digestive fires, all of that was really important to me.

[00:32:57] Yeah, I did a lot of astragalus and like cinnamon and just those warming, healing herbs, decoctions that I would just sip on with raw honey and maple syrup. And those were really nourishing. And yeah, what else did I do? Just lots of resting and definitely having people near was the best medicine.

[00:33:22] And I did not think I would be like this. I really. Thought before I gave birth that I just would want to be alone and with my baby and nobody touching me, nobody bothering me, but that is actually what made me go crazy. I really needed people to be with me and I needed my sisters making me laugh and distracting me and shifting my focus to a more happy place.

[00:33:47] Cause postpartum can be really depressive. And it completely shatters every foundation in your life from pooping, to eating, to sleeping, to walking, to standing, to sitting. You have to do all of those things different. In postpartum and some of those return to a base or a stasis that is a new normal for you.

[00:34:16] And some of those take a really long time to return. For the first six months I couldn't go to the bathroom normally. Like I had to stand up and it was just, it like tore every process to pieces and I had to slowly rebuild it. and does something different, but make it feel normal. And so that, that really sent me through a loop because then you add the physical pain piece of postpartum, which not everybody has, but a lot of women do experience.

[00:34:45] And I was one of those women where I was just a painful, like physically painful postpartum. And. Yeah I really needed people there talking to me and taking my mind to another place and reminding me that there's a road outside of my door that people drive down and, there are trees outside and there's a life still out there waiting for me when I'm ready to emerge.

[00:35:11] Just having people cook for you and bring you warm drinks and sit by the bed and talk to you about their life too, because I didn't always want to talk about my experience. And sometimes friends would come by and be like, tell me all about your birth. And it's I'm not ready to talk about that.

[00:35:27] I don't know if I will be for a long time. I, you tell me about you. I want to hear something. Fun and exciting outside of postpartum. So yeah, it's really important, the community piece and just having women nourish you with not only food and herbs, but also really good conversation and like holding you in that space to let you know that they're there for you.

[00:35:55] That 

[00:35:55] Kelsey: is so wonderful. And it, it makes complete sense, but is it. Just takes me back to what you were saying earlier about how much that is lacking from our kind of culture and structure, particularly here in the States and other industrialized Western 

[00:36:15] Callie: countries that 

[00:36:17] Kelsey: yeah, community is everything and it's so So lacking, but once you have it, it's so clear, like that, this was the missing piece in your life or that just how important it is to continue to cultivate 

[00:36:31] Callie: that.

[00:36:33] Totally. And it's this mixture of When you get pregnant or if you're thinking about children or wanting children, it's like this mixture of creating structure around it and also like creating your sisterhood or your fellow mothers and your friends that aren't mothers, but just women that will be.

[00:36:56] There to stand by you and be your ally through it. But I find that so many women don't have that and have a far hard time finding that. So we do have to look into the logistics and reality behind having kids now where it's okay you need to start saving and set aside these funds where you can hire some of this love and support because.

[00:37:19] There are women out there who will provide these services for you if you don't have the friendships, in place, but Yeah, you just you do have to think about how much you will need and also how much you won't know Until you get to postpartum because I expected for myself to just not bounce back but to be Like energized after birth and just feel so so alive after that experience because I had waited my whole life for it.

[00:37:54] And just, I love birth. I love. babies. I love pregnancy. But the experience for me was so different than anything I'd ever thought. And I arrived to my postpartum needing something very different than I thought I would need. And if I could do it over again, oh my goodness, I would have hired three personal chefs and a maid to come every day to help lean and keep things organized because it just can get chaotic when you can't get up and clean things and do things.

[00:38:28] And yeah, postpartum doula to make you all the yummy herbal drinks and rub your feet and tell you that you're doing amazing and help you with breastfeeding. Oh my goodness. That's a whole nother challenge that can happen. 

[00:38:43] Kelsey: Yeah. It's so true. It's so amazing how many pieces. It's almost like women are just expected to know, like you're just expected to know how to give birth, how to breastfeed, like just whip it out and feed them, Oh my gosh, it's not, that's just 

[00:39:01] Callie: not how it works.

[00:39:04] No. And it, it looks that easy. You're like yeah, you just. it in their mouth and they suck. And that's breastfeeding. It's no. There's so much more to it. There's a science behind it. And if you don't figure that science out with help, It can be one of the most traumatic experiences of your, and your baby's life.

[00:39:24] And. Yeah. Yeah. you 

[00:39:26] Kelsey: just have to be prepared. My mom always describes breastfeeding as being more painful than birth and for me she was able to take pain meds with me but my sister there was no time. So I'm always like, wow, that is extreme to say that breastfeeding was more painful than the 

[00:39:41] Callie: birth itself.

[00:39:44] It is. It's extreme because there's also this pressure that this child is relying on you for food every hour, every minute you need to be fulfilling this role for them. And yeah it definitely can create a lot of stress if you don't have the right support there. But yeah, everything with all of this process too, is just, again, the balance of intuition with knowing that we just, we need help at times too, like we, we don't have all the answers and there is a lot of intuitive knowing within all of it, like your body knows how to birth, you Done this for years and years and years.

[00:40:30] Like women know how to give birth. And also we're in a time that's so weird and. So strange. Like we don't even have real food, like all the time. It's very hard to find real food. We have so much pollution. Clean water. Yeah, clean water. The basics are not here. We get to things like birth and how our bodies work.

[00:40:56] And yeah, they should just blissfully do this stuff, but they don't always because there's a lot of stressful factors at play. So we have to take in consideration our context of the times that we're in and just the context of, again, birthing in patriarchy and birthing in a system and a society that doesn't even value this.

[00:41:19] There's a lot to understand before going into it. And yes, you should trust yourself. And yes, you should follow your intuitive flow as a mother. And also understand that there's women out there who have done it before. And they can help you and offer resources and wisdom that you shouldn't be afraid to take either.

[00:41:35] And these are all lessons, I had to learn to coming into this because you just. You have no idea, before you do it and that's the biggest thing to do before you step into it is just get comfortable with the idea that you don't know anything about what you're about to do and just get comfortable with the idea that it's all uncertain from here, but you can do it, especially with help from your fellow women.

[00:42:02] Kelsey: Oh, that I keep saying that is so beautiful, but it is. I feel like it. I really hear you saying and it's so coincides. It's so similar with chronic illness, but you can know all the things you can feel so prepared walking into this whether it's pregnancy postpartum, getting a diagnosis. Thinking, maybe you know all the things and it will be empowering and helpful to know, but at the end of the day, you need community.

[00:42:33] And I keep thinking you need play, like you need that ability to just let things flow, as you were saying, because you can't, you just can't plan for everything. And there has to be some give and 

[00:42:46] Callie: some take. . Yep. That is what it's all about. Yeah. 

[00:42:52] Kelsey: I'm curious, it's a little bit off topic, but just because you mentioned it before when you were going through, when you were a teen and you were going through these injuries with horseback riding.

[00:43:05] I am, I'm really curious kind of, and even with supporting your mom through her pregnancy and birth at such a young age, for both of those things, what were some of the. First tools that you began working with herbs and nutrition way back then when you were really young. I

[00:43:28] Callie: mean, gosh, there's so many different things I tried at that time because I was still so fresh and new. So I was experimenting and learning as I went but I did. A lot of just simple infusions with really simple herbs like dandelion and burdock. And I remember that was one of the first teas I actually made that the herbalist I was apprenticing for, she recommended that I give it a try.

[00:43:58] So it was just burdock root dandelion root. I'm pretty sure there was alfalfa in there. There might have been some. Slippery elm, but it sounds like 

[00:44:09] Kelsey: such a vitalist 

[00:44:11] Callie: formula. So vitalist, yes, very vitalist approach. But it was very simple things like that because it's just support the liver. Oh if you're having issues in your joints, you should probably support the liver.

[00:44:24] And the same goes for yeah, hormonal issues and all of these other things that can always be traced back to that more deeper approach, which would be to support the gut or support the liver and clearing out the toxins. Cause I remember like one of the things she always told me too, was there's no detoxifying herbs.

[00:44:47] You don't have a detoxifying herb to cleanse your body. You always just support. Your body and how it detoxifies, which is the liver. So the only way to detoxify is to give your liver more life and more love and more support. And that's how you detoxify the body. There's you don't detoxify with herbs. So I love that.

[00:45:09] Yeah. Yeah, just learning like those little nuggets of wisdom was so amazing and so supportive. And yeah, I was, since I was working for her at the time that my mom was pregnant with my little sister she had given my mom, this formula called five W and it's I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's five herbs that you take five weeks before your due date.

[00:45:34] And. She had the easiest birth. It was also her seventh. Like she's done this a million times and she was such a champ. But yeah, I just, I think I had like black cohosh and blue cohosh and cramp bark and trying to think of the other two herbs in there. But and there might have been Vitex.

[00:45:53] Chaseberry. But yeah I just remember like looking at those bottles and reading those herbs and then going to the books and looking at what those herbs did and how those herbs worked in the body and. Yeah, it was such a good introduction to how to like, how to approach herbal medicine in a way that supports the whole body.

[00:46:15] And it's not just this symptomatic pharmaceutical approach where it's very allopathic and you take this for this and you take that for that it's more this is happening because this is probably not functioning the way it could function optimally. So support that instead. Yeah, I 

[00:46:34] Kelsey: love that because they, I feel like so many people aren't aware that you can use herbs allopathically and sometimes that's needed, but also, like the heart and the, yeah, the heart of herbalism is so much more working on that level of really how do we support the body and just doing what it does best, which, yeah, the body is brilliant.

[00:46:56] Our bodies are so brilliant. And that kind of ties back to what you were saying. As mothers, like our bodies know what to do. They were, they evolved for an extremely long period of time to be able to do this and it's such a beautiful kind of shared heritage that we all have, which actually makes me think of because I know we're getting towards the end.

[00:47:17] But we haven't talked too much about your work as a chef, but I know you have done a lot of travel and that different cultures and your own heritage has really influenced your work, especially as a chef, but I'm sure as an herbalist and in many other ways. So can you talk a little bit about that and share how that's affected you?

[00:47:40] Callie: Yeah, totally. I worked in Italy for a little bit at a Michelin star restaurant as a cook, and that really expanded not only my palate, but just my view of what the kitchen can be and how food can be utilized in this. Really communal, fun, jovial way, which I hadn't seen done in America. And I had worked in fine dining here in the States, for several years.

[00:48:07] I was a sous chef. I was a server. And it was nothing like the fun I experienced in Italy and it was hard work also, like there's 12, 14 hour days in the kitchen on your feet. And yeah, it's, it's work. But. Just The experience and the energy is so different and how people express themselves in the kitchen and how they communicate and how emotions are just more clear and more straightforward and up front with one another.

[00:48:42] When people are mad they Throw something and not saying that's right, but then it's done and then, they move on with their life and they're hugging and laughing and kissing each other's cheeks in the next breath. Whereas like coming from here, there's all these grudges and there's all this, I don't think this person likes me, but I'm not sure why.

[00:49:01] And, now I don't like them because they don't like me. And there's just none of that. Maybe it exists. in other kitchens, but the approach and the overall concept of cooking is just so different in other countries. And it's, there's, this sense of it being more than just cooking.

[00:49:22] It's an art and it's an art that's rooted in this love for not only the food, but the love for cooking it for people and spending time with each other. And the meals would last for so long. To this particular restaurant that I was working at in Italy. There's only one seating for the night.

[00:49:40] Whereas I was used to Y'all constantly turning Yeah, so I was used to always turning tables. You get this person in, and you get them out. And here's your cues that you use to very gracefully move them on their way because we have to seat three more people tonight in the same table. But it wasn't like that.

[00:49:59] It was like, you come, you sit, this is your table for as long as you want, whether it's for two hours or it's for seven hours till two in the morning. You are here to drink bottles and bottles of wine, eat food, laugh. We're going to come hang out with you too and talk to you while we're also drinking wine and then going back to the kitchen to check on our pasta.

[00:50:18] Like 

[00:50:18] Kelsey: it's. I, now that you're saying that, I'm realizing that from my experiences traveling abroad and I feel like I almost didn't even notice or realize it, but yeah, it's a completely different energy. Completely. It's, wow. Yeah. That's super 

[00:50:38] Callie: interesting. The rush is taken out of the equation and it's just pure enjoyment.

[00:50:44] It's so relaxing and yes, there's stresses that come with working in any kitchen, so it's not all bliss, but. Yeah, I just, I appreciate the culture and the food culture in other countries so much more. And I experienced the same when I was in Israel where just having Shabbat with families and having that time where nobody's on their phone and it's just all about the food and it's all about the people and everybody's talking about the food and everyone's talking to and about each other.

[00:51:14] And it's just. It's this soulful experience that we don't get a lot of here in America. Maybe we don't get any of it actually. And I try so hard to create those experiences here with family and with friends. And I used to do Sunday dinners and just little things throughout the week that would bring people together and give them that experience where it's like, there's no timeframe.

[00:51:36] You don't have to leave by nine. We can stay up till three in the morning, drinking wine and talking and laughing our heads off, but. Yeah, it's just remembering that food is so much more than the nutritional aspect. And that's why I really like having both lenses where it's yeah, I've worked in the field where I've had clients and done consultations for people and helped them with nutrition and diet and herbs for their health and their wellness and helping them heal from these certain things.

[00:52:08] And then also.

[00:52:12] It's okay you need to make sure your food is enjoyable and tasting good because having all these herbs and tinctures and supplements and like chomping on your raw kale and, your stewed slow cooked meat does that taste good to you? Are you enjoying that experience? Are you doing it just because you feel like you have to, in order to get an extra five years out of your life?

[00:52:34] What are we living for? What's. What's the point if we're not like having this enjoyable experience with our food and with one another? 

[00:52:44] Kelsey: Oh, it's so true. And we just don't see enough of it. And it's a little frustrating because you would think in kind of the more holistic realm that this would be not happening to such a degree, but it is.

[00:52:56] And I feel like one example that I know we've talked about at some point is this pressure to remove certain foods or food groups like gluten or dairy or whatever the thing is. And for some people, like truly medically, they've gotta, they've gotta let go sometimes. But that is so rarely the case, honestly.

[00:53:13] And I, for me, I know with my clients. That is like the last thing I ever recommend to people because why, when there's so much more you could do when someone gets, I had a client, for example, who found joy in having an eclair or another kind of baked treat every weekend. Like, why would I take that?

[00:53:31] If we can do other things to solve the problem, which we did, and she can stay on gluten, like that just seems like a no brainer because you deserve to enjoy. That tree and your life and maybe it is something like you meet someone for that connection or you have your wine night With your girlfriends once a week or every other week like those things are really important and it's so much It's so much more about the experience than it is the chemistry Like we don't need to get so caught up all of the time and kind of that 

[00:54:01] Callie: aspect It's so true.

[00:54:04] And again, it just comes back to balancing All of the perspectives and for me, it's I just know I have to stay in reality. It's not reality for me to say, I'm not having sugar for the next three months. And I'm cutting out gluten for the next six months so I can lose X amount of weight.

[00:54:22] It's that's not reality for me. I'm out all the time, my son loves being in the kitchen now, like he loves baking cookies and making his breakfast toast with me and it's yeah, I'm not gonna stop doing that. That is a huge source of joy for me and my child is to bond through these experiences.

[00:54:41] And yeah, it just has to be coupled with other enjoyable experiences like walking for an hour out in nature and making sure you're moving your body and You're expressing yourself and expressing your creativity, because, yeah, if you're just eating all this food and not paying attention to anything else, that can be a problem.

[00:54:59] Kelsey: That's so true, and it completely, it was funny you said that, because as we were talking, I was thinking about You and your son going for walks and like little explorations and how he always finds like cool insects and random animals that are just like in his hands. He does. Actually, tell us a little bit about that.

[00:55:19] Like how has that kind of nature connection? And having this really, of course, Earthen hands, this relationship with the earth and with nature, how has that really been important to you and your own life and motherhood as well? 

[00:55:34] Callie: Yeah. One thing that I've really noticed is that we have to make such an effort for our children in this time because of technology and because of advancements, which, it's fine.

[00:55:45] This is the way it's going, so there's no stopping that. But. We do have to make more of an effort to get our kids outside into imaginative play and into creative play. And we have to really encourage that for them. Otherwise it is so easy to just sit them on a couch with a movie and be like, I have to get stuff done and you're going to be busy watching this movie for me.

[00:56:08] You really have to keep in mind what is it like to be that age? in this time because me when I was growing up I didn't have the option to get on a phone or screen like we had one little tv with six different vhs tapes to pick from and that was it but Every day I was outside from morning till night, just playing, on the swing and with my dog.

[00:56:34] And it was a very different time. Also stress was like at a different level. Life has always been stressful in some way or another, but now the hustle is just so real and everything is so much more expensive. So you feel that like collectively in the air, it's just there. So yeah, really working on.

[00:56:52] Giving them that childhood that they deserve. And yeah, with him, I just try to make sure he has as much time around animals and plants as possible, because I want him to keep that empathy and to keep that compassion that he was born with, but it's so easily lost before they're even like three because of how the world is and how the world takes that from them.

[00:57:14] And especially boys, like it's. There's so much to get into with all of that, but how the tactics of this culture traumatizes them from days old. And that is literally the beginning of how they see the world through trauma, through abuse, through sexual aggression and violence. And it's just, yeah, I've really tried to make it a point to surround my son with.

[00:57:43] this constant love and compassion and, I work on it every day because it is a practice. There are times where it's hard because he's very strong willed, but As much time as possible with his dog and in nature and on long walks and on hikes and like today, he just had his first horse lesson.

[00:58:02] He got to ride. Oh my goodness! Yeah, helped tag, get all the tag. And yeah, so he loved it. He fed the horses carrots and he loved it. He's a horse lover like us. He's very much into yeah, all things animals, but especially horses. He's always making the horse sounds and acting like he's on a horse, like riding and galloping.

[00:58:26] And so he had so much fun and yeah, it's just the beginning. I'm so excited for him to keep with it and we can ride together. 

[00:58:38] Kelsey: Yeah, so special. Oh my gosh. I love 

[00:58:41] Callie: that. I know. Oh, 

[00:58:43] Kelsey: I feel like that is a good note to end it on because we both know that we could sit here for two more hours and keep talking.

[00:58:51] We could for our listeners. I will of course, like I said, link this in the show notes, but we will you just share where listeners can 

[00:58:59] Callie: find you. Totally. So earthen like earthen. gold is my personal Instagram and then earthenhandsco is my Instagram, my business account. And then my website is just earthenhands.

[00:59:14] com and you can find my shop on there. And yeah, lots more coming soon, but right now still so much in the works. Yay. 

[00:59:23] Kelsey: Yay. So everyone go check that out. Go buy the ebook learn how to make some herbal medicines. Thank you so much for joining Kelly. This was so much fun. I am so glad that we had this chance to record this episode and for you to share all of your amazing wisdom and experience with us.

[00:59:40] Callie: Thank you so much, Kelsey. I hope that 

[00:59:43] Kelsey: you all enjoyed today's podcast episode as much as 

[00:59:46] Callie: I enjoyed sharing it with you. I 

[00:59:49] Kelsey: know that these tools will truly help you feel more resourced and supported in your everyday life, whether you are going through pregnancy, postpartum, or living with a chronic condition yourself.

[01:00:01] As always, the goal of the podcast here at Planet Spoonie is to help you feel empowered, embodied, and more connected to yourself, to your community, your heritage, and your local ecosystems. And I really, truly believe this episode will help you get there. As always, if you feel ready to make big magic happen and you're looking for 

[01:00:23] Callie: more one on one support, 

[01:00:25] Kelsey: please click the link in my bio to book a free Q& 

[01:00:28] Callie: A call with me.

[01:00:29] I know that Callie 

[01:00:30] Kelsey: has so many wonderful offerings as well. So head to the show notes if you are interested in buying her herbalism ebook or engaging with her on Instagram. I highly recommend giving her a follow and checking her work out. She is an incredible herbalist who is contributing so much to the community and the creation of this idea of the Modern Village and just providing more support.

[01:00:53] And opportunities for women to connect with one another. Remember that when we reconnect to our bodies and to nature, healing is truly inevitable. Our bodies are a direct reflection of the ecosystems we inhabit. And just like this earth, our bodies know how to heal.