ALL ABOUT HYPERMOBILITY with TAYLOR GOLDBERG | Living Your Best Life with an Extra Bendy Body

[00:00:00] Kelsey: Welcome to Planet Spoonie, the podcast for lymies and spoonies healing themselves and the world. In this compassionate and collective space, we learn all about the foundations of truly holistic living. Traditional nutrition, herbal medicine, nature connection, and everything in between. These are the same foundations that have helped me rediscover the magic, wisdom, and innate healing capacity of my own body and the body of the earth.

[00:00:26] Even while living with chronic illness in the time of the climate crisis. I'm your host, Kelsey, the herbalist. Let's dig in. This week, I am super excited for all of you to meet Taylor. Taylor is a chiropractor turned virtual hypermobility coach. She specializes in guiding individuals grappling with hypermobility and related conditions.

[00:00:49] So if you are someone who thinks you might be hypermobile, who has been told you are extraordinarily flexible or double jointed or anything like that, I Stay tuned because Taylor has so much wisdom to share. If you're even slightly curious about this, I highly recommend you listen in. Taylor's mission is to assist people in navigating the challenges of hypermobility, spectrum disorders, and hypermobility.

[00:01:13] Bull Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, helping them to comprehend their body's unique needs and requirements and to rediscover a fulfilling life. In addition to supporting hypermobile clients, Taylor has introduced an educational course for other healthcare professionals, equipping them with the knowledge to effectively assist their hypermobile patients.

[00:01:35] This is so, so important because this is a very underdiagnosed and underserved community of patients. So, even if you personally don't think you struggle with hypermobility, but maybe a loved one does, or you have friends that struggle with this, or if you are a clinician who has seen clients that fit this population, I highly recommend listening into this episode and checking out Taylor's website and offers, all of which you can find in the show notes.

[00:02:04] Here we go. All right. Hello, Taylor. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today. I feel like everyone listening is going to get so much out of this. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. So 

[00:02:22] Taylor: I'm Taylor. I'm a chiropractor by trade. I now work completely virtually, believe it or not.

[00:02:27] And I work solely with hypermobility or hypermobile Ehlers Danlos Syndrome specifically. Really anything in the hypermobile world, though. HSD is just as severe and should be treated just as much as AGDS is, and we'll get into that. But yeah, I work completely virtual with this population, teaching them.

[00:02:45] Lifestyle changes, how to manage this condition and also how to navigate this world, especially with different doctor's appointments, which anybody with this can understand how difficult and hard that can be. 

[00:02:56] Kelsey: Oh, absolutely. It's almost a full time job. So, so many hours. 

[00:03:01] Taylor: Agreed. Agreed. 

[00:03:02] Kelsey: Yeah, that's so interesting, especially that that move into the virtual world.

[00:03:08] It's such a It's such a new thing, but for this community, it is just so profoundly accessible and helpful to not be on the road and in waiting rooms for hours every week just, just to do your usual stuff. Absolutely. 

[00:03:24] Taylor: Not only like not having to Go somewhere which has its own issues when you're chronically ill, but also being able to find providers.

[00:03:33] And for me to be able to help people all over and not be limited, just Colorado is crucial because there's not enough practitioners that know about these conditions and that can be helpful. So being in the virtual space has been a huge game changer. 

[00:03:48] Kelsey: That's so amazing. I love that you are offering that.

[00:03:51] And I completely agree because that's how we connected. It's there's, you know, it's, it just opens so many doors. I'm before we kind of get too into things, I'm wondering if you can kind of explain to our listeners, what. Just some of these basics, like what some of these term means meet terms mean in case they don't know.

[00:04:11] So what is hypermobility? 

[00:04:13] Taylor: Yeah, so hypermobility if you've ever been told you were double jointed or if you've heard the word Double jointed, it's not a real thing. We don't have more than one joint What really is is hypermobility and so the definition of this is any joint that goes past the normal normal or general population statistic wise range of motion.

[00:04:35] So there's specific numbers that if you go past that in certain joints, that joint would be hypermobile. There's actually four different types of hypermobility. There's peripheral hypermobility, which means in your hands and your feet. There is historical hypermobility, which means that you were hypermobile in the past, but you no longer are hypermobile.

[00:04:55] There's a localized hypermobility, which is just in one area. So maybe just your shoulder is hypermobile or just your jaw is hypermobile. And then there's generalized joint hypermobility. This is when you have five or more joints that are hypermobile. When you have generalized joint hypermobility or historical hypermobility, that is when you have the potential to get into the kind of systemic nature of hypermobility.

[00:05:20] And so we're going to talk specifically about those two today. We're not really going to talk about peripheral and localized. And when it comes to those two, you can have asymptomatic generalized joint hypermobility or symptomatic generalized joint hypermobility. Asymptomatic Generalized drum and hammer mobility does exist.

[00:05:38] These are your amazing dancers, gymnasts, people you probably see on TV. They may not have any systemic issues. They may not be in pain and they got really, really lucky and are able to do really cool things. And it's important to know that that exists because we can pathologize a lot of things and we, we don't want to do that always.

[00:05:56] On the other hand, More commonly, much more commonly is symptomatic generalized joint hypermobility. And so that's going to be the top of our kind of umbrella here when it comes to symptomatic meaning you are in chronic pain, you have some sort of symptoms, along with having five or more joints in your body.

[00:06:15] be hypermobile. We can get into different categories. We're going to think genetic and then what we're going to call acquired. Acquired means you got it from something that you weren't born with. So maybe a sport, maybe a traumatic event, like a car accident, something gave you that hypermobility and then genetic is you were born with it.

[00:06:37] It is what it is in that genetic category, we're going to call that a connective tissue disorder or a symptom of a connective tissue disorder. There's a lot of connective tissue disorders. For the sake of this conversation, we're going to be talking about one in particular called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome.

[00:06:52] There is actually 13 types of Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. Out of all of the 13 types, 12 of them have a genetic marker. The only one that doesn't is HEDS or hypermobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome. And because of that, it is diagnosed based off of clinical signs and symptoms. And there's a checklist and we'll get, get to that.

[00:07:13] But yeah, that's pretty much what we're going to be discussing today. 

[00:07:17] Kelsey: So good. I love how you explain it. I wish, I wish everyone could see your hand explanations because it's so helpful, honestly, visually. So, so kind of within this world of the hypermobility spectrum disorders and this kind of more generalized and chronic hypermobility, what are some of the Like signs and symptoms.

[00:07:38] What are the things that people with this condition or somewhere on this spectrum kind of live with every single day, whether they realize or don't realize? 

[00:07:49] Taylor: Yeah, so it's really important to note that these are spectrum disorders. And what that means is that everybody's going to experience completely different things on the spectrum, but there are some.

[00:08:00] Commonalities that we can look out for. The first one is very objective. Are you hypermobile or not now? When you get older, you can lose your hypermobility. Hypermobility is not static. It is dynamic. And that's where historical hypermobility comes into play. And so for clinicians asking your patients, have you ever been able to put your palms flat on the ground?

[00:08:26] Have you ever been able to do these specific movements? That is just as valuable as being able to see it in the moment. And that's important. The second is going to be Systemic issues. And the reason systemic issues are a part of this equation is because our connective tissue, when you have a connective tissue disorder, which is what EDS is, our connective tissue lines, literally everything in our body.

[00:08:49] Remembering Cairo school. I didn't really think much of it when we were working on cadavers, but like it literally lines, everything, our organs, our muscles, everything. And when there is issues there, it's going to affect. Everything. And so some of the most common are GI issues, especially GI issues that like are unexplained or kind of waver a lot are not very consistent.

[00:09:15] Fatigue is going to be a huge one. Chronic pain is a characteristic for sure. Dysautonomia type symptoms, which can include dizziness, sore throat, feeling like you have a fever. Things like that, exercise intolerance or post exertional malaise having rashes or itchy skin, some stuff in the MCAS world.

[00:09:39] A lot of eye issues are very, very common in the EDS population as well. So really what I tell clinicians is if you see somebody, check off. a bunch of different systemic things that don't seem to make sense. And they say to you, like, I have all these issues that don't really make sense, automatically look into some sort of connective tissue 

[00:09:59] Kelsey: disorder.

[00:10:01] That's so fascinating. And I feel like there's so many directions we can go because there are so many myths and misconceptions around all of this, but I'm curious, you know, now that we kind of have a baseline, if you can share a little bit about kind of your story and, you know, going through chiropractor school and how did you kind of find yourself in this niche and in this 

[00:10:24] Taylor: world?

[00:10:25] Yeah, so my story is very, very unique and is not what most people in this, this space experience. I got really, really lucky and I got diagnosed and I was helped from a very young age. So when I was in second grade, my mom realized I was not able to hold a pencil correctly. And I was really, really struggling with writing.

[00:10:47] And she. Already knew that she was hyper mobile. So she already knew she was dealing with this stuff. This was way before 2017. So we didn't even have the diagnostic criteria. So it was a completely different ball game back then. But I was really, really fortunate to have an occupational therapist since second grade who helped me be able to be able to do things with my hands.

[00:11:10] Again, I was able to use my hands again and not. Having that at such a young age set me up for success, and that is why it is so important that we start screening kids for hypermobility, because it really can help, and it can give you an increased quality of life. I have no hand issues now, which is pretty cool.

[00:11:29] And I was also set up with chiropractors and physical therapists as a kid. And so my story is very unique because I had help at such a young age and most people are not as lucky as I was. And so how I kind of got into this space was actually by accident. So going into chiropractic school, I never planned to work with hypermobility.

[00:11:48] It was never part of the picture for me. I didn't really know who I wanted to work with when I was 20 years old. I really don't know a lot then, but while I was in chiropractic school, I had a really scary experience, unfortunately, where I had a neck adjustment and I had some really scary neuro symptoms after, and that I decided to post that on social media and it kind of blew up and that kind of led me to start working with this population.

[00:12:17] So it was kind of by accident. It was also, I think a little bit meant to be, but yeah, that's my story. 

[00:12:23] Kelsey: So that's really interesting. And I'm, I'm curious now because you of course are working with clients virtually, so you're not doing adjustments. So like, how do you, how do you kind of support clients as a chiropractor and also a hypermobility coach without doing hands on adjustments?

[00:12:42] What do you, what do you kind of do to support people? Yeah, 

[00:12:44] Taylor: absolutely. And that's one of my favorite myths to bust is chiropractors do way more than adjusting, or at least they should be. And so we actually have, I actually run a mentorship called clinical concepts for any chiropractors listening to teach you.

[00:12:59] different things that you can do for your patients that don't include adjustments because we know adjustments are just one tool to get us to somewhere. They are not everything. With that being said, what I do for clients specifically is I actually teach them how to self manage these conditions and get some relief on their own.

[00:13:14] So they're not so dependent on practitioners and that's not to say that hands on treatment is invaluable. I would say 90 percent of the time I am co working with somebody where they are having hands on treatment and there is so much value in hands on treatment, but hands on treatment alone is not enough, especially when you're dealing with something as systemic and as complex as AGDS or HSD.

[00:13:38] And so what we really do is create a safe movement plan together. We get our clients moving again in a way that is fun and going to help them reach their goals. as well as, like I said, navigating this world, especially going to different doctor's appointments. What questions should you ask? Who shouldn't you see?

[00:13:55] Who should you see? Why should you see them? And we also do a lot of symptom tracking. I call this flare tracking or flare management. And the purpose of that is to figure out are there triggers in our control? Are there triggers out of our control? And what do we do when those Happen. And this is where self management can really come in because if, you know, all right, I'm in a flare, but I have the power.

[00:14:18] I have the tools to get some short term relief while waiting to get in somewhere for long term relief, or maybe you don't even need that. That gives you your power back and you're not dependent on anybody that allows you to travel again. That allows you to leave your little bubble that allows you to live life.

[00:14:35] And that's how you increase your quality of life. And that's the goal 

[00:14:37] Kelsey: here. I love that and I relate to that so much because as someone with chronic illness, you know, it's it's so hard for everyone to understand how difficult it is just financially and timewise to constantly be relying on other people for every time there's something wrong or something going on.

[00:15:00] So it is so important to kind of build out a toolkit or a toolbox of what can you do to kind of manage symptoms, manage what's going on, get through a flare. How to know when to draw the line between like, what can I do at home? When do I need to call somebody? So can you share kind of like, what are some of the tools or things that you, you really love using personally or with your clients to kind of help 

[00:15:23] Taylor: manage things?

[00:15:24] Yeah, absolutely. So as far as musculoskeletal stuff goes literally something as simple as a lacrosse ball can go such a long way. I am such a fan of a lacrosse ball, but how to do just some self massage and. Hands can become a limiting barrier in that. A lot of the times being external things like a lacrosse ball, like a foam roller.

[00:15:46] I'm a big fan of at home tens units. I'm a big fan of topicals. Things like that. As far as kind of pain management. I'm a big fan of Epsom salt and Epsom salt baths. I take one every single night. Magnesium can be really, really helpful for a lot of people in this population. That's kind of the problem.

[00:16:04] pain management stuff that we go through, but also finding different movements that can help us and feel good and feel safe for us. Second is. This word gets a lot of hate and a lot of buzz, but it is a buzzword. I don't love using it, but I don't know how else to call it, but nervous regulation, it's a buzzword, whatever.

[00:16:26] There's value in it. Especially if you're dealing with dysautonomia, learning how to control your breath, working on breath work can be. So valuable for this population. Secondly, just dysautonomia management in general. So compression and all of this stuff, none of this is medical advice. Speak with your providers, work with somebody, but compression, learning how much salt you should be in taking when you should be in taking salt.

[00:16:53] How should we be timing our meals? Things like that. And then hydration caffeine. We look into all 

[00:16:59] Kelsey: of those. Yeah, it's, it's amazing how comprehensive You really need to be to kind of learn what works for you. What's a trigger? What's helpful? Sometimes something can be both things and you you have to figure out how to navigate that but i'm i'm curious Can you kind of explain for listeners who aren't aware of?

[00:17:21] Dysautonomia or kind of like nervous system basics of what what is that? What is dysautonomia? What is nervous system regulation? 

[00:17:30] Taylor: Yeah, so dysautonomia again is going to be our umbrella term and believe it or not, there's like 30 different types of dysautonomia. There's a lot of types of dysautonomia. The one we most commonly hear about on social media is POTS, and there's a lot of reasons for that because it's so common.

[00:17:45] Especially after a long COVID, but it is not the only type of dysautonomia. And that's really, really important to know because I get clients all the time saying, well, I don't have POTS, so I can't have EDS. That's not true. You can not have POTS and definitely still have EDS, but you can not have POTS and have another form of dysautonomia as well.

[00:18:04] And the second most common would be orthostatic hypotension. And both of those are going to pretty much have very. Similar management strategies. And when we have this autonomia, what that means is our autonomic nervous system. So our autonomic nervous system controls all the things we don't think about our breath, swallowing digestion, the things we don't have to think about.

[00:18:27] That's what it controls when we have. Dysautonomia, our autonomic nervous system is messed up, can be messed up in different ways, but sometimes we're too much in fight or flight. Sometimes we're too much in rest and digest. Sometimes they just don't know how to get along and are going off at the wrong times.

[00:18:46] And so learning how to manage that and how to get our autonomic nervous system. Back on track is I guess what nervous system regulation means to me what it means is learning how to manage when you are symptomatic and how to kind of recalibrate your nervous system and your neuroplasticity and get your brain a little bit more on board with the rest of your 

[00:19:10] Kelsey: body.

[00:19:12] I love that. And it's really interesting because I think there's so, there can be so much misunderstanding around people thinking that, you know, if they just figure out this one thing, this one trick, this one technique, like you're going to, you're going to master it. You're not going to have symptoms.

[00:19:29] Like you're going to be healed. You'll be good. And that's so not what any of this is about. It's about learning how to manage it, learning how to ride the wave, learning how to get quality of life back. But it's so it's so interesting, even among, you know, amongst clinicians, how how many misconceptions there can be kind of around that and like what the goal really is with addressing and and building up our clients or patients kind of toolkits.

[00:19:57] Taylor: 100 percent and that quick fix mindset is not individualized just to the hyper mobile space we see that. everywhere when it comes to pain and especially in the chiropractic world. We love quick fixes. The human body doesn't work like that. We are very, and pain is always, always, and I never use absolutes, but pain is always multifactorial.

[00:20:21] What that means is there's always one more than one thing playing a role in everybody's pain story, which means. One thing can't fix it. It just doesn't work like that. I wish it did. It would be so much easier and we would have a lot less issues, but it just doesn't. And when we're working with complex issues like hypermobility, like a connective tissue disorder, Part of this is learning to accept that we're never going to be 100 percent symptom free and learning to accept that can be really, really challenging and having support through that, but also realizing there's still hope.

[00:20:56] Just because we're never going to be flare free doesn't mean we can't have a very, very good quality of life where we can do all the things we love. We just have to be prepared and know hey, every now and then we're going to flare up. But if you know what to do for those flare ups to make them less intense and less frequent, that gives you your quality of life back.

[00:21:16] Kelsey: I love that because it's so empowering. And hopeful and it really, you know, it takes such a kind of perspective and mindset shift to, to move into that place. And I know last time we spoke, you were kind of talking about some of the things that you help clients with, with regards to maybe types of movement or exercise or activities that they could not do.

[00:21:38] And they thought maybe they never would be able to do again. And a lot of what you do is help them get back to that and, and figure out how to do it in sustainable ways. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

[00:21:48] Taylor: Yeah. So that is my favorite thing in the world to be able to help people with, because unfortunately in this world, we get told no a lot.

[00:21:58] And in my opinion, we get no told no too much. And so a little backstory, why I'm so passionate about this is when I was in college, I was 18. I didn't know anything about anything at this point. I went to an orange theory class and I was doing tricep extensions. And the trainer came up to me and said, if you.

[00:22:17] lift overhead anymore, you're never going to be able to use your arms again. And that was very, very scary for me. And it's. Because if you saw what I was looking like for tricep extensions to a normal trainer's eye, it probably looked really, really scary because my shoulders are very, very hypermobile.

[00:22:35] And so I stopped lifting overhead for a year and it was detrimental to me. Completely detrimental, not only for pain, but I I was a competitive cheerleader my whole life. I love doing handstands. It's my passion. It's my everything. And I wasn't able to do them for, for a year. And it really, really affected my mental health along with my physical health.

[00:22:58] And I see it happen all of the time in this population. We're told no, mainly because the practitioner saying, hypermobility doesn't actually understand hypermobility. Get you strong enough to do pretty much everything as long as you are in it for the long haul. That is the number one thing I see the most is that we rush through these things and we don't give it enough time.

[00:23:24] And so some just general things we know about hypermobility is when we have ligament laxity. We can't change that unless you have a scaffold. You can't change your ligament laxity. So our muscles, because our body's adaptable and our body's smart say, all right, I'm going to provide the stability for you, but if your muscles aren't prepared to provide that level of stability that you need, they're going to get fatigued really, really easily.

[00:23:49] And so that's why we hear a lot of the time when I exercise or when I go to PT, I don't really, there's no pain during the movements, but then afterwards I'm. In so much pain, I'm in debilitating pain. That's what the most common thing I hear in this population and we have to learn how to figure out your tolerable starting point to movement and gradually build you up over time, based off of your symptoms, not based off of objective measures just for the sake of going up in progressions, it has to be based off of your symptoms, symptom tracking, in my opinion, is a must for this population, and for anybody listening the Guava app is a free resource for symptom tracking that is Amazing.

[00:24:31] And it's specifically for EDS. So definitely check that out, but so yeah, we basically find the tolerable starting point to movement and we create realistic expectations along with small little wins along the way so that we're in it for the long haul and don't get bored out of our minds. And that's how we can get to our goals.

[00:24:50] Kelsey: That's so, it's so just exciting and hopeful and rewarding to hear that because I, I have had that experience. I have heard from so many other people who have had similar experiences, like you can never do yoga again, or you'll never, you know, do X, Y, or Z. So that kind of leads me to being curious. And, you know, of course, for all our listeners, this is like not individualized medical advice, but.

[00:25:15] What are some of the movements or forms of exercise that you think can be really helpful for people with hypermobility, as well as the ones that, you know, really, ideally, they might want to be getting some more one on one or individualized support for? 

[00:25:31] Taylor: Yeah. So I don't like generalizing exercise at all ever.

[00:25:36] I don't like putting generalizations on these things, but we know certain things are harder than others for this population. So let's start with also, this is going to be really dependent on what comorbidities we're dealing with. And if you're dealing with a certain type of dysautonomia, this may not apply.

[00:25:55] If you're dealing with me CFS or long COVID, this may not apply. What we do know for people experiencing post exertional malaise, which comes along a lot of the time with ME CFS and long COVID and certain types of dysautonomia is that strenuous exercise or high intensity interval training is an absolute no no for that population.

[00:26:17] We also know gradual exercise therapy is an absolute no no for that population. What gradual exercise therapy is, is when you have specific objective markers that you are. Gradually going up without taking a look into your symptoms at all. And just say, okay, I'm going to run one mile this week. And then next week I'm going to run 1.

[00:26:38] 5. And then the week after I'm going to run two miles and that works great. So those couch to 5k programs is a perfect example of gradual exercise therapy. That works great for the general population. That could be very detrimental to the post exertional malaise population. So as far as exercise in general, I'm a big proponent for strength training.

[00:26:58] I will always be a big proponent for getting strong. It was, it is something that has completely changed my life. But if you absolutely hate strength training, I don't know that we have to force you into it. I don't know that they're perfect type of movement for anybody, but strength training, if you haven't tried it, I highly recommend at least trying it, at least give it a try.

[00:27:18] But I Think yoga is valuable to this population. I think dancing is valuable to this population. All a lot of my clients were ex dancers and they love getting into some form of dance, whether that's Zumba or they go to their own salsa classes. Getting back to those is a lot of the time. Our goal, yoga is also another goal of a lot of my clients.

[00:27:38] I want to get back to yoga again, because I was told I couldn't do it anymore. So I can't really generalize these things. It's really What's your goal? And then we break it down and we reverse engineer it. 

[00:27:50] Kelsey: I love that. I mean, I, I'm curious if you can kind of explain. So something that I know happens a lot with, with this population of people I've experienced it is you have hypermobility somewhere and then That can create a lot of tightness somewhere else can, and that can be as a result of doing any of these, you know, forms of exercise we just talked about.

[00:28:14] So can you kind of like break down what's happening when someone experiences that? 

[00:28:19] Taylor: Yeah. So this can happen for two reasons. The first one, which we see this in the general population as well, is that when you have one area with a lot of movement, the area above and below usually compensates and can become less.

[00:28:35] Mobile, if you will. So we see this a lot. Let's say you have a really hyper mobile neck and really hyper mobile low back. Usually that thoracic mid back area will get locked up to try to compensate for that extra movement above and below. That's the one example. And like I said, that happens in the general population as well.

[00:28:54] The second is if you have a connective tissue disorder that can affect your ligaments. That can lead to something called ligament laxity, meaning your ligaments have too much motion. So in the general population, like, think of it like a rubber band when it When you pull it, it bounces back in the hypermobile population.

[00:29:13] It's overstretched. It doesn't bounce back because of that. We can get something called instability. Instability is different than hypermobility. When we have instability, our body adapts and our muscles say, Okay, we need stability here. I'm going to get really, really tight to provide that stability and That is that tightness that we can feel a lot of the time.

[00:29:36] Usually we feel it in our upper traps. That's the most common area. Our suboccipital muscles can get really, really tight because of this. Our pelvic floor muscles can get really, really tight because of this. And that can lead to other things like leaking and urgency and things like that. But that is why we.

[00:29:53] usually are very bendy but also very, very, very tight. Another reason for that tightness feeling sometimes can be due to dysautonomia and blood flow issues. And when we're not getting enough blood flow to certain areas, they can feel really, really tight. We see that a lot in that upper trap area. If you've ever heard of coat hanger pain, that's what that's referring to.

[00:30:14] Kelsey: Yeah, definitely. That's it's I love the coat hanger term because it gives you such a visual understanding of exactly what that feels like and It's so and I keep thinking about as you're talking with with all of you know the varied forms and ways that this can show up for someone how We don't always know what is causing this or where this came from like you were saying there could be genetic factors a traumatic event that happened an infection that occurred There are so many different factors that can play a role, a combination of all the above, and we don't always necessarily know conclusively, but how does, how does kind of understanding, at least partially, you know, the origins behind, you know, why this is happening for someone, how does that inform your work when you work with someone?

[00:31:06] Yeah, so 

[00:31:08] Taylor: this is a, is a loaded question and I think it's more helpful to guide us of what we're going to prioritize. And so any connective tissue disorder, anybody that's in that genetic predisposition has to go to a cardiologist and has to get an echocardiogram because there's specific heart risks when you have a connective tissue disorder.

[00:31:33] If you have acquired hypermobility and you have HSD acquired through a sport or through a traumatic event, we may not be as worried about that predisposition to certain comorbidities and certain heart conditions. So it can help us definitely guide us into what doctors we're going to prioritize seeing, but Honestly, the biggest thing is to ruling out all the other types of EDS because there are certain types of EDS that have very different management strategies and we need to make sure that we're not dealing with those.

[00:32:04] There's also other disorders like Marfan's that we want to rule out other autoimmune disorders that we want to rule out. So it's actually more about helping us, guiding us to what is this not and confirming that what we're dealing with is what we're along with what doctors 

[00:32:21] Kelsey: we should see. Yeah, that makes so much sense for me.

[00:32:25] I think about it a lot with clients in terms of like how I'm formulating kind of nutrition and herbal strategies. So it's so interesting to hear because it really is. It can be a frustratingly lengthy process and I and I hear it so often from people it's so difficult because you end up seeing so many providers so many specialists, but it really is so important because this population of people doesn't fit into one neat little diagnostic box and that's why it's so important to kind of have as Well informed, big and collaborative of a health care team as you possibly, possibly can to get the best possible care that you can.

[00:33:11] But it I, as a patient myself and knowing so many folks in this population, it can be so difficult to kind of wrap your head around that. 

[00:33:22] Taylor: Yeah. And it can be exhausting trying to find all those doctors too. And so creating a care team, and in my opinion, as a chiropractor and as any musculoskeletal doctor, so PTs, OTs, chiros, that is where we can really, really change people's lives.

[00:33:37] We see patients more often than any other doctor does. And we can be the first to say, Hey, I think you're dealing with hypermobility. And if you know things that one can help them from a musculoskeletal point of view, but also know how to build a care team for that patient and how to prioritize what is going to be the kind of most bang for their, not only their money, because we live in a for profit healthcare system, let's be real and honest, but also their time that.

[00:34:06] That's life changing when you have less doctor's appointments, but are getting better care, that's life changing and we created a clinician course specifically for this for musculoskeletal clinicians to learn how to one, notice when somebody is hypermobile to what do you do from musculoskeletal point of view, but three, how do you build a care team?

[00:34:27] When do you refer? And when do you say, I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to find somebody that does and help your patient navigate through that process. 

[00:34:37] Kelsey: That's so beautiful. So, so important. Can you tell us more about that? Because we've kind of talked a lot about your work with patients and clients, but how and how and why did you get into working with clinicians?

[00:34:53] Why is that so important to you? 

[00:34:55] Taylor: Yeah, so I started getting into working with clinicians with clinical concepts, the mentorship for chiropractors. And that's been amazing and it's so exciting to see the chiropractic world change, but I, I've known for a long time that the hypermobility space needs this course because we are not taught about hypermobility in school.

[00:35:15] We have one lecture in chiropractic school on hypermobility. I've spoken to a lot of PTs. There's is pretty similar to ours. That's a big problem, especially for chiropractors when we know it is completely contraindicated to do a neck adjustment on these patients, and that is not emphasized in school enough.

[00:35:35] And it's not emphasized why and I think if we learned the why behind things were more likely to do or not do those certain things and that's what's really missing from the education. The biggest reason that we're not taught about this stuff in one of the biggest issues in the hypermobile space is because we're considered a rare disease or a rare disorder that limits our funding.

[00:35:59] So our research is very, very limited and the education system goes based off of, they're supposed to go based off of research. And when we don't have any, because we don't have any funding, that's a huge problem. Secondly, you're told you're never going to see anybody with EDS. We are literally told that in school, I was literally sitting there.

[00:36:16] I was like, And you see the picture with the super stretchy skin and the extremes, and we need to start realizing and learning that it's not always the extremes, and this is not a rare disorder, HEDS is not a rare disorder and it is becoming more and more clear of that every single day. Until we get out of the rare disease category, we're going to keep dealing with these barriers.

[00:36:38] Sorry, I But 

[00:36:40] Kelsey: that's so important because I know through my own research in graduate school, it's, it is such a myth. We, I remember doing a clinical round and there was a, there was a client with HEDS and I, I remember feeling like this is not, The people involved are like not qualified to really be working with this person because this is so specific and it's not that rare like this did the statistics show the research shows this is not hypermobility in general, especially like this is not rare at all.

[00:37:13] This is affecting a pretty big portion of the population. 

[00:37:16] Taylor: Yeah, 100%. And so the reason I decided to create this course in general is because I would hear every single day. I still hear it every single day. Yeah. I was told by my PT. I was told by my Cairo. I was told by my doctor that I'm hyper mobile, but there's nothing you can do about it.

[00:37:33] So there's no point in diagnosing it. That is so false. So false. There's so much we can do for these people. And we are creating a helplessness in this population because of that narrative and it has to change. So the reason I wanted to create this course and work with clinicians is one to show because I promise every clinician is going to see hypermobility more than once in their career, not just once more than once in their career.

[00:38:02] And you have to know what to do with those patients. And that's what this course is about is teaching the basics of what do you do when you have somebody hypermobile, how can you help them and how can you make them not feel so helpless? 

[00:38:14] Kelsey: I love that. It's so, so important and so, so deeply needed. And especially like you were saying in this kind of post COVID world, especially with dysautonomia, but there, in a good way, there is a lot more awareness growing around this, which is really wonderful to see, but it is, you kind of mentioned this before.

[00:38:34] It's shocking how Recently, some of these diagnoses just even became a thing like I think POTS was maybe 1993 or somewhere in the early 90s and it's, it's kind of mind boggling just how recently these have even come into the picture and so of course, you know, physicians and practitioners may not even be aware of these.

[00:38:58] Taylor: Absolutely. And we can't have any of these conversations without bringing up something called mass cells. And the reason that we're starting to learn so much more about these conditions is because of the research going on from long COVID and COVID. And a lot of the similarities deal with something called mass cells, which are cells all over your body that produce histamine.

[00:39:21] And when you have a connective tissue disorder, they can produce too much histamine. You can have too many, you can have a lot of different mast cell issues. But we're starting to realize that the mast cells in general are a lot of the picture for dysautonomia, a lot of the picture for ligament laxity.

[00:39:37] And we only know that recently because of Dr. Afrin's work, which has only been around for, I don't know how long, not long at all, less than 10 years, I believe. And then the research that's now coming out for long COVID. And it's really, really hopeful because for the first time we're actually seeing research on this stuff.

[00:39:55] I can't tell you before COVID. there was nothing. You would look up everywhere. There was nothing. You could not find information on this stuff. Now it's starting to become more and more common and that's both a good and bad thing. 

[00:40:11] Kelsey: Yeah. And for anyone listening who doesn't know, Kind of what mast cells are you want to explain like how you know what kind of role they play in the immune system It doesn't have to be super So 

[00:40:23] Taylor: I I'm a chiropractor.

[00:40:24] I'm a musculoskeletal doctor. So I'm not that that Great at this specific topic. I just know how it affects the musculoskeletal Musculoskeletal system, but what I do know about mast cells is they are your Cells and they are all over your body and they can be really, really more prominent in your GI system and they produce histamine and that histamine response, if it's too high, can cause a whole slur of 

[00:40:50] Kelsey: issues.

[00:40:52] And it's kind of related, you know, to this whole it's like an excessive immune response, like really generalize it and break it down. And like you're saying in post COVID and I of course with a lot of work with a lot of people with chronic Lyme who can also develop MCAS and it's, yeah, it's really interesting to see how this is all unfolding and really the different comorbidities that can exist, like, it's, it's, It's EDS.

[00:41:19] There's other autoimmune conditions. There's neurodivergent conditions there's so many things that can kind of overlap with it with with these people And that's part of why it's taken so long But that has been the one I suppose silver lining is there is so much new research coming out that's like really exciting and and fun to see and it's fun to watch everyone kind of unfolding it and getting into it and Yeah.

[00:41:47] It's like a, it's a new craze, but in a good way. 

[00:41:50] Taylor: Yeah. Agreed. A hundred percent. And that is one of the most important things when it comes to recognizing HEDS is now we're going to look out for these specific comorbidities that we know are common in this population. And like you said, dysautonomia, MCAS, neurodivergent Different GI disorders like gastroparesis.

[00:42:10] These things are, you don't really look into them unless you have that predisposition. And that's why it's so important that you have that diagnosis or get recognized from a doctor so that they can look into these other things that we know we can help with. And that can drastically increase your quality of life.

[00:42:29] Kelsey: Yeah. And it, and it really makes me think about that common misconception of like, Well, does it really matter if I get a diagnosis like I know I have POTS or I know I have hypermobility and it's like, yes, I know it's hard. And really, frankly, I think so many of us have a lot of trauma around the medical system because so many people were dismissed or invalidated or outright like gaslit for years by practitioners who, yeah, maybe we're not well meaning but It's That diagnosis is so important because then you can build out that care team like you were saying and they can investigate like what is really going on, what's not going on, how can we support you, how can you get your quality of life back because it's, it's, it's really difficult and there is one of the most dangerous in addition to thinking the diagnosis is not important.

[00:43:20] One of the most dangerous myths that I hear so often from Lyme patients is like, You have to push through the pain. You have to push through the pain. That is the last thing this population needs to do. Like we already pushed through pain. Like that's our baseline. That's like our every day. 

[00:43:36] Taylor: Exactly. And so, so it's so common and I don't really know.

[00:43:42] I don't think anybody should be pushing through pain in general. I don't know why as a society, like that's any, anybody thought that was a good idea ever, especially when you're dealing with your body feeling unsafe and then you're just constantly pushing through pain. You're just. Kind of confirming more and more that you're creating this unsafe environment for your body.

[00:44:05] And if we can let go of that and create some safety, that's where, that's where the magic happens. That's how we are able to get to our 

[00:44:13] Kelsey: goals. Yeah. And it's, it ends up being such an extreme because it's like, well, you push through the pain, push through the pain, and then you, you know, have post exertional malaise or you have, you, you know, something, the ball drops eventually.

[00:44:30] And then it's like, well, nope, now you can't do anything at all. It's like, whoa, let's find, you know, that's why what you do is so wonderful. Let's find some healthy middle ground here. Like, Let's track symptoms, let's figure out a system, and above all, like, learn to listen to our bodies. I feel like that's one of the biggest blessings, if you can call it that, of living with some of these chronic conditions.

[00:44:53] It's like, the body's never going to lie. The body will always tell you. You can always trust your body's gonna tell you what's up, what's a good situation, or a good food, or a safe food. And it's tricky, but in a way, you're like, well, now I know. Yeah, and 

[00:45:09] Taylor: that learning to listen to your body is a skill, and we are not taught that skill.

[00:45:14] We're not taught that skill at a young age. We're not taught that skill as adults. We are taught to ignore, ignore, ignore, and that doesn't help anybody. And that all or nothing mindset. Is so prevalent in this population and rightfully so, and a lot of that has to do with their doctors have instilled that in their brain.

[00:45:33] You can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, push through this, push through this, push through this, that's all they know. And when we learn to let go of that all or nothing mindset and learn to live in the gray for every aspect in our life, that's where we see progress, but nothing in this world works.

[00:45:50] Black and white and all or nothing. It just doesn't. Humans just don't 

[00:45:54] Kelsey: work that way. Yeah, I love, I love when you say that, living in the gray, that's such a good saying. Do you find that this is a lot of the work that you do with your clients is empowering them to be okay with listening to their 

[00:46:07] Taylor: bodies?

[00:46:09] Yeah, 100%. And letting go of that all or nothing mindset is probably the number one pillar of my program or working with clients because it's really, really hard. And believe it or not, having guidance and showing you, Hey, like This was you in that all or nothing mindset. Sometimes you don't even realize that you're in it and you need an external person to say, we have to step back.

[00:46:32] We have to look more big picture. We have to set smaller goals. We have to be more realistic here and not set herself up for failure. And that is a huge, huge part of what we 

[00:46:42] Kelsey: do. Yeah. And it's, it feels like there are so many reasons why. That happens. And I wonder if a big part of it is the fatigue being such a common symptom for this population.

[00:46:56] And then there's like an almost a need to overcompensate that when you're not in that fatigue mode, then you're like in hyperdrive overdrive, because I just see that so commonly that we all tend to be people who are like, Go, do, do, go, go until we literally drop. And, and it's, it's really difficult to unwire that.

[00:47:18] And it's. And it's so important to increase literacy amongst people who don't have these conditions. Like when, when we say we need rest, when these patients say they need rest, they need rest. Like they're not trying to get out of doing something. They would much rather be doing something than resting.

[00:47:36] Believe me, 

[00:47:37] Taylor: exactly. I, yeah, I, I see that all of the time and I don't know where as practitioners, we got that kind of mindset that people are quote unquote lazy like Nobody is coming to you for help and they're asking for help. That alone is a sign that they're not lazy. So I don't really understand that mindset and why practitioners constantly create that narrative people, especially in this population.

[00:48:08] Exactly what you said, like they're bed bound, they can't function, they don't feel like themselves anymore and they used to be able to do certain things and now they can't anymore. And so on those good days, they're like, Oh, I feel like me again. And then they go, go, go and go too hard. And then it's back to that all or nothing.

[00:48:26] That's where pacing can be really, really valuable. And that's something that I think everybody in this population should look into. Naomi it's all about that pace on Instagram is a great resource for this. She has a course specifically on pacing and learning how to pace and learning what pacing means and using it as kind of something to help you gain energy, instead of seeing it as.

[00:48:49] a barrier or I just can't do what I used to be able to do. When you can change that mindset and use pacing to your advantage, you get your life back. 

[00:49:01] Kelsey: That's so beautiful. I love that. Emphasis on pacing. And I, I think that a lot about that a lot too with ranges, like With the typical whatever population of people who have no condition whatsoever, right?

[00:49:16] You can set these goals, right? Like the couch to 5k goal, but for people living with these conditions, it's so more, much more helpful to work with ranges and then fine tune. Like, how does my body feel within this? Where am I going to land today? And it's just, it requires like no, no pun intended, but it requires a certain level of like mental flexibility.

[00:49:40] Taylor: Yeah. And that's, that's why I believe symptom tracking is so important because we have to be listening to our body while we're incorporating any tactic. Because if we don't, we're going to end up with consequences, unfortunately. 

[00:49:56] Kelsey: It's so, it's so, so true. I know we're kind of getting close to the end.

[00:50:01] So I'm wondering, can you kind of share again just recap for all our listeners. What are your current offers for both clients and patients as well as clinicians? 

[00:50:12] Taylor: Yeah, so for clients, for anybody who's dealing with any sort of hypermobility, I'm happy to hop on a discovery call and see if we're the right fit.

[00:50:21] If we're not, I will find somebody that is. But I do hypermobility coaching to get you moving again, get you to your goals, learning how to create the. Lifestyle changes, nervous system regulation, managing these conditions and navigating the system for clinicians, MSK clinicians specifically. So PTs, OTs, and Kairos, if you have, which I'm sure you have seen anybody with hypermobile and been like, I don't know what to do with this person.

[00:50:47] This course is for you. It is to teach you how to help your hypermobile. patients. And then for any chiropractors that want to learn how to treat in a more evidence based way with a principle based approach, Clinical Concepts is, we have two offers there, a mentorship for new grads and students, or a community for practicing chiropractors.

[00:51:09] All three of those, just reach out. You can DM me on Instagram. It's the hypermobile chiro. You can also find all of these on my website, which is the hypermobilechiro. com. 

[00:51:17] Kelsey: Amazing. And I will of course, link all of these. So check the show notes to, to find Taylor. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[00:51:26] I got so much out of this. I'm sure all the listeners did too. This was so much fun. So thank you. Thank you for the work you do and for joining us. 

[00:51:34] Taylor: Thank you for having me and same to you. Thank you for all you're doing for this community as well. 

[00:51:39] Kelsey: I hope that you all enjoyed today's podcast episode as much as I enjoy sharing it with you.

[00:51:45] I truly believe the tools and information that Taylor has to share will help you feel more supported in your everyday life. If you think you know anyone who experiences hypermobility, please share this episode with them. Taylor has so many incredible offers. So I highly recommend that you check out her info, which is below in the show notes and definitely check out her Instagram.

[00:52:09] She is super active on there and shares all kinds of really fun, amazing resources. And of course, if you don't already go ahead and give me a follow too, if you are living with chronic illness, chronic Lyme, or any kind of. Persistent health condition, and we would like to learn more about how you can incorporate herbal medicine, holistic nutrition, and other holistic lifestyle tools to improve your quality of life, to manage symptoms, to avoid flare ups, and to truly see change in your everyday life with 

[00:52:42] Taylor: practical and 

[00:52:42] Kelsey: realistic tools.

[00:52:44] Head over to my website to book a call with me. I have several different packages available, and even a free Q& A call if you have never worked with an herbalist before and you have some questions. Remember that when we reconnect to our bodies and to nature, healing is truly inevitable. Our bodies are a direct reflection of the ecosystems we inhabit.

[00:53:05] And just like this earth, our bodies know how to heal.