EP. 19

[00:00:00] Kelsey: Welcome to Planet Spoonie, the podcast for lymies and spoonies healing themselves and the world. In this compassionate and collective space, we explore traditional nutrition, herbal medicine, and nature connection as tools for empowerment when living with chronic Lyme and chronic illness. These are the same tools that helped me rediscover the magic, wisdom, and innate healing capacity of my own body and the body of the Earth.

[00:00:26] Even while living with chronic illness in the time of the climate crisis. I'm your host, Kelsey the Herbalist. Let's dig in. Today I am thrilled to share with you a beautiful conversation I had with Herbalist Veronica Rickson. 

[00:00:42] She is an incredible fertility awareness educator who works with clients to learn how to begin tracking their cycles to increase their bodily autonomy and health literacy and to create more connection to themselves. This is something that is so important today now more than ever as we are seeing women's rights being threatened as well as a huge increase in infertility rates. This is such an important area of conversation for us to be discussing and exploring and I'm so thrilled that she was able to come on and share with us.

[00:01:22] If you are someone who is interested in learning more about cycle tracking and understanding your fluctuations throughout the month, if you are looking to optimize your health and fertility, whether you want to avoid pregnancy or you are looking to achieve pregnancy, this is a great episode for you. If you are someone who is struggling with any kind of chronic illness, whether that's Lyme disease or a reproductive disorder like PCOS or endometriosis, again, this is a wonderful episode for you.

[00:01:53] Veronica is such a lovely speaker and she shares so much wisdom with us. So I am just really thrilled for you all to hear it and hear about the menstrual calendar and journal that she has created so that you can begin engaging with your own body and reconnecting to nature and this way. So without further ado, here is our conversation.

[00:02:17] Welcome to the podcast, Veronica. Thank you so much, Kelsey. I'm so excited to have you to have another herbalist on the show. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. 

[00:02:30] Veronica: So yes, I'm an herbalist. I specialize in the menstrual cycle and fertility woman's health. And I'm definitely an accidental herbalist.

[00:02:39] I had no intention of ever becoming a trained herbalist or that this would be my my path in life, but thank goodness it found me. It's exactly what I want to be doing. And yeah, as it all started with me wanting to learn how to take care of my chronic acne. And that's what led me here almost 10 years ago.

[00:03:00] Kelsey: That's so interesting. Acne is is tricky. It is a really tricky symptom of something bigger that's going on. And that was one of my worst symptoms actually of Lyme disease, which is just, yeah, the oddest thing. So that's so interesting. How did you end up getting started and how did that evolve for you?

[00:03:22] Veronica: It, it really started just on a journey of self care and I happened to Google natural remedies for acne and it landed me to an herbal center nearby where I live called the Berkeley herbal center. And they were offering a three week botanical beauty class on skincare. And so I, it was perfect timing.

[00:03:44] I signed up for it. And by the end of the third class, I decided to sign up for the one year long term program because it was. It was just so fun and fascinating. And I just wanted to keep learning more. So I enrolled in the first year and then when that ended, I enrolled in the second year and basically I was there for five years studying and I just loved it.

[00:04:09] So that's what got me into the line of or the field of herbalism. But once I became an herbal student. And I also had gotten off of hormonal birth control at that time. That's what led me down to the specific path of woman's health and menstrual cycle and fertility, because since I had been on hormonal birth control, since I was 15, I didn't know anything about my body and the way it naturally function.

[00:04:35] So that let me, led me to learning about the fertility awareness method. And at the time I was using it for natural birth control and it really just opened up the can of worms for me to understand how my body works and how I, it's in my power to take as good as be my very best advocate and support system and taking care of my body.

[00:05:04] It really led me to believe it's all my responsibility and I. I want to understand and learn how to take care of myself. And that's really what I'm super passionate about, love doing. And if it resonates with other people, I like to show them or teach them what I've learned along the way too.

[00:05:25] Kelsey: That's so beautiful. And there are so many threads there that I want to tease out. It's hard to decide where to go next, but I want to backtrack a little bit before we talk too much about fertility cause I definitely want to talk about that more. I'm curious what Because I know you worked and ended up working in the herbal clinic as the clinic supervisor and you also have these incredible experiences abroad and being exposed to traditional and indigenous plant medicine and tea making.

[00:05:55] I'm curious, when you first started, did you like have any concepts that plants could be used as medicine or was this just like a whole new world for you? 

[00:06:06] Veronica: I did have that concept because my mom who raised my sister and I was very naturally inclined whenever we got injured or sick, we never really were on medications at all.

[00:06:18] And I didn't really think too much about it at the time. It was just, the way it was. And then when. Yes, as I mentioned, I was in the or earlier when we talked, I had shared with you that I was in the Peace Corps. I was in South America and Paraguay, and that's what really opened up my eyes to understanding that there's other cultures around the world that every day.

[00:06:43] use herbal remedies to support their digestion, their circulation, any, anything that they need support with, they turn to herbal remedies. And so that was my first really eye opening experience that there could be a different way. And at the time when I was a Peace Corps volunteer, I didn't now, shoulda, coulda, woulda, I really wish I could go back in time and choose that to be my Peace Corps community development project.

[00:07:13] Was learn, learning about their herbal remedies and getting the word out there. But no, that's not what I was doing. Either way, it really opened my eyes to a different way of being. 

[00:07:25] Kelsey: That is incredible. What a wonderful experience to have to just be exposed to unbroken lineage and traditions like that where it's been continued all this time and really hasn't been lost as of yet.

[00:07:41] I'm curious to what it was like working in the herbal clinic and Why do you feel if you feel this is an important form of health care that more communities here where we don't have that kind of access? Why is it something that we do need more access to? 

[00:08:01] Veronica: You mean in urban cities in California where you and I live?

[00:08:06] Kelsey: Yeah, here in the states. 

[00:08:08] Veronica: I think we're so lucky to have Options a lot of times when people are in a health crisis or any kind of crisis in life Sometimes it doesn't feel like there's options or they don't know what to do but if people are given various options and they could See what works best for them, or maybe if they Follow their intuition.

[00:08:33] They, maybe they can feel to what, for what option might work best for them. But currently a lot of people still don't know that there's alternative options. If we're raised only going to the doctors, traditional allopathic doctors, when we're not feeling well, or when something's going on, then of course that's all we're going to know as our option, our go to method of trying to take care of ourselves.

[00:08:59] If there are more herbal community clinics, more herbal schools or even allopathic doctors in conversation with medical herbalists, that could be a beautiful way to, to bridge the two together. And then people know, Hey there's always more than one option. I could use both of them in combination.

[00:09:18] I could try one first. And if that doesn't work for me, then I'll try the other or vice versa. So that's what I really love is that is for people to know there's options and always have informed consent, always know the pros and cons of each option. The risks the likelihood that something might work for them or not work for them.

[00:09:38] And I, I believe based on my own personal health experience and the way that I have gotten to witness so many clients navigate their own health conditions is that they are not aware that there's any other options and they're not aware of pros, cons, risks, side effects of nearly anything.

[00:09:58] If there are more opportunities for verbal integration then, the power is in the person's hand to, to do what they want with their health, because then they know that there's options and and that's where informed consent and informed decision making starts. 

[00:10:18] Kelsey: That was so incredibly well said.

[00:10:21] I agree with you wholeheartedly on all fronts. And that is the perfect segue to into talking about fertility awareness and cycle tracking. Can you tell us, maybe start with a little bit of a backstory of kind of what the fertility awareness method is and What it even means to cycle track because this is definitely an area where health literacy is shock shockingly Missing or really low.

[00:10:48] Veronica: Yeah. The fertility awareness method, is really versatile and that's why it could be really confusing because Sometimes people will think, Oh, it's only for religious people or, Oh, it's only for natural birth control or, Oh, it's for when people are having trouble conceiving, then they start tracking their basal body temperature and all this stuff, but All of those things are true.

[00:11:11] Actually it can be for there's various types of fertility awareness based methods. Some of them are really have great efficacy, and some of them don't. So that's and they're usually lumped all together. So it puts like a negative spin on how valuable it can be. 

[00:11:31] And especially it puts a negative spin the way the medical community might perceive natural fertility awareness based methods as well.

[00:11:40] So if somebody is using like the rhythm method then obviously the efficacy is not going to be really that great. But if somebody is diligently charting their fertility signs and they've been taught correctly and they understand what to do, then the efficacy is as high. It's 99% or more effective to be 

[00:12:04] Kelsey: extraordinary.

[00:12:05] It is. It is. 

[00:12:06] Veronica: Yeah. 

[00:12:07] Kelsey: I'm in a in one of my nutrition courses in grad school, we were just looking at A research study. I'm really fortunate that it's all functional and integrative focus. And we were just looking at a research study that actually charted each of the different, contraceptive methods.

[00:12:25] And they did specifically actually separate the different kinds of cycle tracking, like fertility awareness rhythm, as well as, copper IUD and oral contraceptives. And the efficacy of the fertility awareness method is astounding. I think it's Definitely not something that many people realize is when you know how to chart these specific signs every single day.

[00:12:48] Veronica: It's very effective. It is. Yeah. And the specific one I use is called symptom thermal method. So that's the one that I could speak to. There's other great ones as well. A handful of other great ones. But the one that I use is symptom as in what symptoms is your body producing? As your hormones fluctuate throughout your cycle and thermal is the basal body temperature aspect of it.

[00:13:12] So it's cervical fluid or cervical mucus in combination with basal body temperature charting, you understand if you're fertile or if you're not fertile on any given day. And with that information, you can decide what you want to do with that information the balls in your court. So it's incredibly empowering.

[00:13:32] And I, I really wish that we all had this education starting in high school for both males and females, because then we would understand how our bodies work so much better. And I think we would really value and have so much more respect for both female and male bodies. 

[00:13:52] Kelsey: Yeah, that's so true.

[00:13:53] And it's, really, of course, would be so wonderful for every woman and menstruating person to have this, really intimate understanding of what's happening in our bodies day to day, week to week throughout our cycle, but also for partners, for men, for non menstruating people to understand this too, because it's just as important for everyone to have this kind of health literacy of what's going on.

[00:14:18] And Yeah, it's incredibly empowering. 

[00:14:22] Veronica: It is. And I really Love to use it as a diagnostic tool for myself, each cycle Oh man, I had really, bad PMS a cycle. And it's no surprise because I have been going under a lot of stress or, I really, Cut back on my self care. I wasn't going on my walks every day, or I was really relying on coffee this past cycle.

[00:14:46] And now look or, that's like a simple example, but you can see what hormonal imbalances are going on in your own chart pretty easily, and if you're not able to, then you can work with a fertility awareness educator that will help you understand what your charts are showing. But I like to use these as a diagnostic tool because they're It's incredibly cheap.

[00:15:08] It's just paper and pen. Or yeah, I'll just stay there for now. It's paper and pen and a basal body temperature thermometer. Instead of turning to an outside source to do, really expensive sex hormone testing or, something outside of yourself. This is something that you can do.

[00:15:29] And understand what's going on in your body each cycle. And yeah, it just keeps going and going all the benefits, because let's say you are somebody who wants to try to conceive, you can take a look at your charts and think does my. Progesterone need a little bit more support before I go down this journey.

[00:15:47] And if so, like food, lifestyle and herbs really are most, or are what most people can depend on to improve that in a matter of three, three cycles, three months instead of going down other routes where you might be told that medical intervention is the only way to conceive. 

[00:16:08] Kelsey: Yeah, that's so beautiful because it.

[00:16:12] It is except one is traditional like these are ways of knowing and experiencing the natural rhythms of our body that women have been aware of for a very long time and maybe have just become a little bit more fine tuned these specific ways of going about it. But like you're saying, it's also accessible for people.

[00:16:33] You don't need this, like several hundred dollar fancy thermometer or app or whatever. And of course, whatever works for you. But it truly is something that can be very basic and simple. And it's a way of getting to know yourself so much more intimately. To conceive or to not conceive, to really have that power, like you said, and control over your life by understanding your body and giving your body the space it needs throughout the month and throughout your cycle.

[00:17:05] And you shared a really interesting post recently on Instagram. That was I think you made like a Venn diagram graphic almost of expressing that there is this big gap between fertility education straight into, going into more intensive and usually very expensive medical interventions, which can of course be incredible when they're needed.

[00:17:32] But I'm curious if you can explain a little bit of your thought process here, because I think it's really important for people to understand that. It's not an either or situation. It's a both and you get to the side and that education of these foundational pieces like nutrition and herbs and lifestyle.

[00:17:52] That's really what kind of, that's where you have so much power to set the roadmap and then you can go from there. 

[00:17:59] Veronica: Yeah. I would have never said such a bold statement. In my Venn diagram image, it was one circle with the word egg freezing, and then the other circle has holistic fertility education, and then the joining circle said, I think the word nothing, as in there's almost nothing in common between the two.

[00:18:22] And that's a little bit Maybe harsh, but what I mean by that is I've for the past several months, I've been working or contracting for a fertility clinic which has been really eye opening to see the the more medical medicalized side of supporting people who are Wanting women who are wanting to conceive.

[00:18:46] And so I've seen firsthand how many mid to high 20 year olds to young 30 year olds are already in the process of going down the I B. F. Track or getting their eggs frozen. Before learning anything about their bodies, actually. And so I just I know that if somebody is given the opportunity to learn about their bodies and how they are able to observe and chart what their bodies are communicating to them.

[00:19:24] Then again, if the person wants to, they can make changes with their diet, with their lifestyle. And if they want, they could also use some herbal support to help shift their hormones in a way that would be conducive to conception or would allow for better egg quality pretty, pretty quickly, three to four cycles instead of automatically assuming that they are a good candidate for getting their eggs frozen.

[00:19:51] And I'm sure, sometimes, yes, that is definitely. Indicated, but there's just no way that it's indicated for all these young women that I'm seeing. So I, again, I give them the option, like you can do this, but since you made an appointment with me, I'm guessing you're curious to learn what it is that fertility awareness educators can offer, and so then I just share what I am able to share with them and I leave the option up to them.

[00:20:22] And I'd say maybe three fourths of the time they are like, Oh, okay let me try this first and then I can go down that path if needed. 

[00:20:33] Kelsey: Oh, I love that so much because it's something that I hear so frequently and clients and in friends that. It truly, there is just this huge gap of the moment that it comes into awareness.

[00:20:45] It's Oh, I'm hitting 30 or I'm in my early thirties. I better freeze my eggs without really anything preceding that. And it's a pretty astronomical cost unless, it's covered by your work, I think starts around 15, 000 for ag retrieval. And that's just the which is a huge investment.

[00:21:03] And I love that. You lay the options out because it is no judgment. People deserve to have access to all forms of healthcare, but I love that you can help guide people to. Egg freezing is still an option, but let's try maybe at least improving your egg quality over the next few cycles by improving your nutrition and your lifestyle.

[00:21:27] And then go from there and see what happens. It's just amazing that. Again, it goes back to informed consent, like really providing people and women with all the possible options and empowering them with all the tools of things they can do in their daily life. And just not starting always with the most invasive thing, but starting with more foundational, simple things.

[00:21:51] And then you can progress from there as needed. 

[00:21:54] Veronica: And it also has to do with belief system. Sometimes If we believe this is the option I feel most comfortable with. Then I do, then I support the client in choosing that route because they've already made that decision.

[00:22:08] Okay let's do that. Cause you feel most comfortable with that. And I will support you the best I can in your chosen path. Sometimes, fertility aside, if there's a health condition going on, that could be really scary for somebody. And I think the power of mind is Huge.

[00:22:25] And so if somebody is having that kind of belief that I believe this type of treatment is going to work better than I w I would never like pooh, pooh that I will support that all day. And obviously if they're working with an herbalist, they also want herbal support. So I'll say, okay, you want to do this.

[00:22:44] Allopathic treatment, beautiful. And I will support you as well with herbs and you can, and then you're going to have the best of both worlds. So it's really important. I think that when you're working with somebody to, to, to, of course, I, as cliche as it sounds, or corny meet, meet them where they are just because when when I was first starting out, for example, wanting to get off my acne medication it was like, Oh, okay, I'll take my oral antibiotic maybe just two times this week, and I'll start drinking dandelion leaf tea, too.

[00:23:22] I was wanting, I wasn't ready to give up the pharmaceuticals yet. And I'm a perfect example of that. 

[00:23:29] Kelsey: Yeah, I love that because there is, like you're saying, there's room for both, and it, and what people are most comfortable with matters so much. And the conversation that it's like, And either or that you have to pick one or the other, or that conventional medical practitioners and traditional medical practitioners are on opposite sides, like it's just so tired and it's not true at all.

[00:23:52] We can choose both. I'm really curious, how this has impacted. How the hormone health work and fertility education work as an herbalist impacted your own experience as a mother and, starting your own family. And was that kind of part of what drove this interest for you?

[00:24:16] Veronica: I think what drove my own interest initially was feeling really upset that I didn't even know there was a natural birth control option. Because I was on a really strong birth control when I was really young. I was on the Depo Provera shot, which is I'll just say dangerous. I don't think anybody should be on that birth control.

[00:24:36] And then was on different types of birth control for 10 years until I learned about an asymptothermal method. And so when I got off of it, I was really committed to achieving what I wanted to achieve. Like without medical people telling me what to do. Like when I got my IED removed, my, the gynecologist who removed, it was really against me doing the symptothermal method.

[00:25:04] She, I think she was just trying to look out for me. However, she said that she didn't want me to end up pregnant and that's likely what would happen. And so I really just wanted to prove her wrong. I didn't, for whatever reason, it didn't freak me out at all. When she said that I had 100 percent confidence in my ability to figure this out, I don't know what gave me the confidence because I had never met a single person who was doing it.

[00:25:29] I didn't know there was no it wasn't, in pop culture yet, period tracking apps, nothing. So I have no clue what gave me that kind of Yeah self confidence, but either way I had it and I learned how to do it and there was no looking back. So having that kind of like ownership over, over my own reproductive health, which is like very vulnerable made me feel more confident in other areas of my life too.

[00:25:58] It helped me really, what I feel like it helped me initially with Understanding myself better, understanding what I, what my values were getting in, in touch with my intuition and and my spirituality really, although at the time I didn't really think of it that way, but I definitely do now.

[00:26:20] And my partner at the time, who's now my husband, was nothing but supportive. Thank God. He was just like, okay, if that's what you want to do, I, let's, sure, let's figure it out. So that was great. And we were, I, we were together using the symptom thermal method probably for I think, let's see, seven years before I use the symptom thermal method not for contraception anymore, but in order to conceive.

[00:26:51] So that was a long time of using it for contraception and then deciding, okay, we're going to flip gears here and we're going to use it to time intercourse. So I noticed leading into wanting to conceive that my. Second half of my cycle, my luteal phase was a little bit short and my temperatures were a little bit lower than ideal in order to conceive.

[00:27:18] So I was like, okay what would you do for a client? That's what I started doing for myself. And. And then about three months after that, then we we tried to conceive it didn't work the, or I hate to say the word work, we didn't conceive the first time, the first cycle. And then we decided, you know what?

[00:27:37] I'm, I want to call in our child's soul together. So we went on a nighttime hike. It was a full moon. And yeah, I prayed. I said, okay, you know what? If you're ready to join us, we're ready for you now. And we love you and we're ready. And and then that cycle I conceived. Oh my gosh. So just even knowing that I could call upon nature and nature is a reflection of my body too.

[00:28:07] I definitely believe that and it's just helped me become way more attuned to myself, to nature. Being more gentle with myself. Yeah all the good stuff. So anyways, we used it for trying to conceive as well. And now I use it for contraception again. 

[00:28:26] Kelsey: Do you feel like gosh, there are two, two baskets there, but on the more logistical side of things, was that a big shift for you to shift from using it as contraception to trying to plan for pregnancy and conceive?

[00:28:43] Or is it really not that different? 

[00:28:45] Veronica: It's not that different because as soon really what you're doing is you're identifying your fertile window that the period, the relatively short period of time, each cycle that you're capable of conceiving because what keeps sperm alive up until ovulation is fertile cervical mucus or fertile cervical fluid.

[00:29:08] However you want to call it. That's what keeps sperm alive for up to about five days until you ovulate. So if you know what those days are, you're able to pinpoint those days. Sometimes it's not as easy because if somebody has a condition like polycystic ovarian syndrome or really their hormones are out of balance they might have what looks like a really long fertile window where they're having patches of cervical fluid for a few days.

[00:29:38] And then it goes away, they didn't ovulate yet, and then they have more cervical fluid, it goes away, and that could last for 20 days, it could last for the patches of fluid coming and going could last for three months until the person finally ovulates. So for cases like that it's you, the people can still absolutely use symptothermal method.

[00:30:00] It's just you're taught how to use it if you're having those not so common Straightforward signs of fertility. So anyways, going back to, is it more difficult or do you really have to change gears if you're using it for conception versus contraception? Not really. It's really just knowing, okay this is my fertile time.

[00:30:21] So this will be optimal time for intercourse. 

[00:30:26] Kelsey: I, gosh, I just love cycle tracking so much. And so it's such a beautiful dynamic. Experience that we go through as women that it is just so incredible to me How different our reproductive cycle is from men? Where there is just such immense change happening each day and each week throughout the month or however long your cycle is that it's really quite miraculous.

[00:30:55] I'm curious with your clients, what, I definitely want to talk about the, your book, your journal that you have released. Cause I definitely want listeners to know about that who are interested in this. But before we get into that what are some of the things that you wish everyone knew about fertility and cycle tracking?

[00:31:13] What are some of the like top tips or tricks, just things that you wish everyone knew or maybe busting some of the common myths and misconceptions around this? 

[00:31:24] Veronica: I keep finding more and more out about myself, literally every cycle. So what initially started as a way for me to understand when I was fertile or not and understand my hormones and everything.

[00:31:39] That's one aspect of it. Then I moved into, Oh, now I'm a practicing clinical herbalist. I can help people's shift their hormones and see it reflected on their charts with herbal medicine. And so then herbal medicine and cycle charting is another facet of it. And now. The longer I've been involved with this, the more I'm starting to see it as an absolute way to enhance and transform your life in all areas, not just with reproductive health or health in general.

[00:32:14] And I've, I've thought that for a while now, but it feels like it's being even elevated to A whole new level of really believing that our fertility cycle not just when we're menstruating, but the whole cycle is. We can use it as our inner compass or inner guide to help us be attuned to nature, which in my belief is God.

[00:32:40] And that means that if nature is mirrored in our body then that's also God residing in our bodies too. And so that's why it's really beautiful to see to see how you can use your own. Beautiful fertility cycle as a source of inner guidance, inner strength, inner compass and follow follow that, that path.

[00:33:05] Is, are you following that? Oh, totally. 

[00:33:08] Kelsey: It's so interesting because it's weaving weaving science and spirituality together. And I think we can be so trained as clinicians to stick within the realm of science, but, That doesn't encompass everything. And maybe the explanations will come one day, but we don't always have explanations for things.

[00:33:29] And I remember for me, one of the first, like more than 10 years ago, I when I first started tracking my own cycle. I started moon gazing at night and making it a practice to go outside and gaze at the moon and the stars and just and sit with them and pray and speak to them and just have that quiet time.

[00:33:50] And my cycle was my period was so irregular throughout all of my teen years. And at this point I was somewhere between 18 and 20. And when I started making that a practice, It completely regulated my cycles, not to the point that there weren't still off things, but where I could reliably know when my period was going to come every month.

[00:34:10] And it was that practice. And it was truly just maybe in part, the light exposure, making sure I had the exposure to darkness at night and the moon gazing. But there is also the, that nature connection piece, which just can't be understated. 

[00:34:25] Veronica: Yes, I love that. You said that example, I I included a really beautiful I call it a moontime account in the menstrual calendar journal about just that it's about Native American tribe in Northern California, who this woman was sharing about how her grandmothers taught her that any time any of the women were out of out of balance, that they could just go sit underneath the moon and ask the moon to bring her back into balance.

[00:34:55] So it's a beautiful ethnographic account that really happened. 

[00:35:01] Kelsey: That's amazing because that's where I was when I started doing this was in the Redwoods at, when I was in herb school in Northern California and my, when my herb teacher taught us, talked about that. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's really where I was.

[00:35:15] Yeah. Yeah. So tell us about the journal. I'm so excited to share this with listeners because I think it will be so helpful for so many people who are interested in this. 

[00:35:26] Veronica: Actually when I going back to when I do see clients, a lot of them have no clue that I made a journal or any of that the fun Lulu stuff that I also enjoy practicing and sharing about.

[00:35:41] See, oh, she's, she specializes in menstrual cycle. She's an herbalist. I'll see her for my what I need support with. So I just keep it there. If anybody wants to learn more about like the fun practices that you can do with your menstrual cycle. That's really what the journal is for in combination with fertility charting and herbalism too.

[00:36:04] So that's where you get to see all three facets of it. But Again, just going back to when you work with clients, you just you meet them where they are. If a lot of people don't want anything to do with spirituality, that's totally fine. It's, that's my own personal belief system and enjoyment.

[00:36:20] It doesn't have to be everybody's, but when people find the journal separately, then they could really have fun weaving in all those three combinations together. So the journal is half informational and half do it yourself basically. So the second, it's called a menstrual calendar journal. It could be anything you want it to be really, you can use it as a calendar.

[00:36:45] I use mine as a regular Gregorian calendar and I plan my month ahead with my cycle in mind which is really helpful. And if you are somebody who's curious about fertility charting, then you're, you can also use the journal for that as well. There's basal body temperature graph set up for you.

[00:37:06] And if you're not interested in doing that, you can use the graph paper for something else. Yeah, it's just, it's a really fun, beautiful, unique way to get to know yourself and your body better. And how your menstrual cycle, your beautiful hormones that shift every day in your cycle how to use that as a force for good in your life, because you can even the hard days, even the days where we're feeling low the journal is really supportive because It lets you see why you might be feeling low that day, or maybe you don't know why, but I share about some practices in the journal where you can, for example, during your premenstrual phase where people are way more likely to feel really critical and harsh and maybe short tempered.

[00:37:53] And maybe we would typically find ourselves saying something that we might regret later or doing something that we might regret later because we're have a tendency to be more irritable or short tempered Instead, maybe we write this down in our journal and then we're not letting it go.

[00:38:10] We're not forgetting about it. We're just. Let's just write it down. And then during our menstrual phase, when we're more receptive and intuitive, and maybe we'll receive guidance about what is the next best step to take in regards to this problem that we are experiencing that we're really upset that we were really upset about in our premenstrual phase.

[00:38:31] And then in your inner spring or your as you're approaching ovulation, you could take inspired action during that time. And so just like following your cycle that way is one really fun example. Really it's guys, the limit, once you understand the hormone patterns that you experienced cycle to cycle.

[00:38:52] Kelsey: I love that you weaved all of those pieces together, because I so remember when I was first getting into this, I wanted something like that so bad. And I just, like we talked about before, there, there's lots of really technical books out there, but I was so confused about What, just what are the signs, what are the signs?

[00:39:12] What's like the temperature? What is the cervical mucus? Like it was so intimidating and overwhelming. So I love that you just made something that people can just get their pen out and literally start right away, right directly in this journal. But that also is weaving in herbal traditions and these other kinds of pieces.

[00:39:33] Yeah, that's just that's so beautiful and exciting. Can people who have other kinds of chronic conditions use this like PCOS or endometriosis or Lyme disease, things that are impacting their cycle, is this for them too? Or is this who is this for? 

[00:39:52] Veronica: Yes. It's for anybody who wants to get to know and understand their body better.

[00:39:58] And usually it's for people who want to improve the health of their menstrual cycle or improve their life in some kind of capacity, because. Really the first step of changing anything is awareness of that thing. And we might think, oh yeah, I have PCOS. It's. I never have a regular cycle. I'm having all these other symptoms because of this condition.

[00:40:23] But once we really sit down and start writing down our notes our body observations from that day I think it sends a message to our body and to our psyche and our limbic system that, Hey, I care. I'm going to spend a minute reflecting on my body today. And I'm not holding any rigid expectations of things to shift.

[00:40:52] I'm just honoring my body by paying it some attention right now. And it literally takes a minute a day. And yes it's completely customizable. So it doesn't matter if you don't have a 28, 30 day cycle. You just keep charting. Even if you have 120 day cycle, beautiful. That's totally fine. But yeah, a lot of people who do have chronic health conditions find the journal which makes me so happy every time I get a message or a note about what's been going on.

[00:41:20] So yeah, it's for anybody who feels drawn to it. And yeah, I never want to leave anybody hanging. So if they do find that they're interested in the journal and they're using it and they want, they have a specific question about how it. Might work with their cycle or whatever health condition that they might have going on.

[00:41:40] They can always email me. I'm very approachable. 

[00:41:46] Kelsey: Oh, that's so wonderful. I, that's just such a lovely thing. And I so agree with what you're saying about, there's almost a self soothing quality to cycle tracking. Like I know for myself with having chronic Lyme when I was really in the thick of it, the roadmap and clinical approach I use as hormones is just not the first thing we address, like the infection, that kind of has to come first and that like process.

[00:42:12] And then hormone working on hormone health comes later, but it was even for me in the thick of that it was just so there was a self soothing quality to one having this intimate relationship with myself where I was tracking what was happening and writing symptoms down and writing, ovulation days down versus bleeding days down and having this all kind of in place and knowing that maybe I don't know what to do with this all right now, and I can't address this right now, but it's there, and I have it, and just spending that time doing it really did, does bring a certain level of peace of mind.

[00:42:50] Veronica: Yep, I definitely, I completely agree with that for sure. 

[00:42:55] Kelsey: Yeah, so that, I think that brings us to our time and you mentioned people can email you and of course I'm going to include All of the links in the show notes so people can find your Instagram and your website and order the book if they want to get the journal.

[00:43:09] But just give us a little snapshot of where listeners can find you. 

[00:43:13] Veronica: They can find me on Instagram at kapu, KAP u.community. And kapu means taboo or sacred in Hawaiian, Polynesian and my website is www dot kapu community. And my menstrual journal, you could purchase it there. Yeah I definitely want to start creating more of a community aspect.

[00:43:39] Obviously I intended it to feel like a community at some point Yeah, because I'm realizing that people it's a rare person who learns how to fertility chart and just takes off and never looks back. Usually clients want more support and handholding and just to feel like, am I doing this right?

[00:43:57] Oh, I have this question about this. And so I this upcoming. Long story short, I'm opening up my first community ever to the, for the people who have the chance to pre order the journal. And so every single day we'll be doing a really quick check in about what's going on as they start cycle charting.

[00:44:19] However, I want to open this up to be more of a longer term opportunity for whoever wants to join some kind of cycle charting community so that they don't feel like they're doing this alone. They have a place to ask quick questions. And then, of course, if they need more in depth support, then you would just work with me directly.

[00:44:39] But Either way, I think that'll be a good place for people to really connect with me and other like minded women who are also wanting to do this for themselves. 

[00:44:49] Kelsey: That is amazing. I love that so much because we definitely need that. community support as women, as women who are mothers, everyone across the spectrum, that, that communal aspect of this is so incredibly important.

[00:45:04] So thank you for doing that. And thank you for doing this work because it is so incredibly needed right now, especially, podcast. It's been such a pleasure. 

[00:45:18] Veronica: Oh, thanks so much, Kelsey. It was really fun talking with another herbalist and yeah, it has been great. Thank you all so much for listening to 

[00:45:26] Kelsey: today's episode.

[00:45:28] I am sure that you got so many juicy gems of wisdom and information out of this. Truly fertility tracking and awareness is so incredibly important for everyone to learn about whether you are someone who menstruates and experiences this kind of cycle or not. Because health literacy, bodily autonomy, and informed consent are incredibly important.

[00:45:55] And of course, we want to ensure that everyone is feeling their best, living their best, and that we really bring in a new generation of children that experience profound health and being and do not grow up Living with the profound disconnect from their bodies and from nature that so many of us experienced.

[00:46:17] If you got anything out of this episode, I hope that it brings you a sense of hope that you truly do have the power to make a difference in your health and in your fertility. Whether you're looking to conceive a child or not, because truly you do have the power and the capacity to make change and to feel better.

[00:46:38] Maybe even to feel your best. As always, please know that it is such an honor to be here in this space with you. And remember, our bodies are a direct reflection of the ecosystems we inhabit. And just like this earth, our bodies know how to heal. The journey to healing is a mutualistic endeavor that involves community.

[00:47:02] I am so grateful that you're here walking the path with me. Until next time.