EP. 22

[00:00:00] Welcome to Planet Spoonie, the podcast for lymies and spoonies healing themselves and the world. In this compassionate and collective space, we explore traditional nutrition, herbal medicine, and nature connection as tools for empowerment when living with chronic Lyme and chronic illness. These are the same tools that helped me rediscover the magic, wisdom, and innate healing capacity of my own body and the body of the Earth.

[00:00:26] Even while living with chronic illness in the time of the climate crisis. I'm your host, Kelsey the Herbalist. Let's dig in. Hey everyone, happy Thursday. I am super excited to be here with you as always. Today I want to dig into a very interesting and hot topic. And that is detoxification. Detox is a pretty elusive term.

[00:00:50] Let's dive in. It definitely means different things to different people. And there are a lot of detox diets, detox teas, detox supplements just a million in one products out there that claim or are supposed to help with detox in some way. And I think You know, in part when so many people have a desire to do something, I do think there is a legitimacy to that.

[00:01:19] What is the message behind why so many people feel drawn to detoxing? I think there is some symbolism there, but I'm not going to get too much into that what I do really want to talk about is the science and the physiology behind what exactly detoxification is and why this is important and why it's important really particularly to people with chronic Lyme and co infections.

[00:01:46] This is a topic that I think is important to talk about because when it comes to chronic Lyme and co infections, prioritizing detoxification is the first and most essential step towards recovery. This is something that was missing in my own treatment when I was really sick and I didn't know too much about Lyme and I was really looking for help.

[00:02:11] And I'll get a little bit more into it. When we actually talk about get into this topic, but, essentially I really wanted to find someone who prioritized detoxification because it seemed to me that essentially I couldn't treat the infection because the Herx reactions were so much worse than the disease itself.

[00:02:30] And I could not find a practitioner who was line literate who understood, I felt that her thing didn't make sense. And I needed, I wanted help from someone who also understood that you don't have to hurts to heal. And that's really not right to expect patients to go through treatment that is worse than the disease itself.

[00:02:52] And it's potentially more dangerous and harmful, which there's a significant body of evidence showing that. So I'm I couldn't find anyone. And finally I found Hillary Thing, who has become a teacher of mine. I am in my second year of a clinical mentorship with her. She is absolutely incredible. And I really just wanted to name her and acknowledge her at the top of the episode because her framework really, she, I was looking for someone who understood the importance of this, but I found her.

[00:03:24] And She not only got it, she has a whole framework and treatment approach based around the importance of detoxification as really a core pillar of treating and addressing these chronic infections. I just wanted to shout out and acknowledge her because she has been so influential in my own work and in my practice and there have been, many other incredible herbalists and teachers as well along the way.

[00:03:48] Stephen Herod Bunner, of course, has several seminal books on the topic Subject of Lyme disease and co infections, which are fantastic, but I really wanted to mention Hilary because she is First and foremost, she is cited so much throughout this piece that I wrote that I'm basing this episode off of.

[00:04:06] So I just wanted to give her a shout out because she's amazing. In my practice, Lyme is, of course, the main condition that I'm working with, so in this context, detoxification has a very specific meaning. Digging in a little deeper, when we're treating chronic Borreliosis, aka Lyme, and co infections, the microbes that cause these infections become very widespread and deeply embedded within the tissues of the body.

[00:04:35] As these microbes proliferate in the tissues in the body, they release what are called endotoxins. And these endotoxins are actually what cause the symptoms of Lyme. So you've probably heard me talk about this before in another episode or Instagram or somewhere. But these endotoxins are essentially just like metabolic byproducts that it's a normal thing that these bacteria or viruses, whatever infections you have, whatever unique, super fun cocktail of infections you've got.

[00:05:09] There. They just release these byproducts as a normal part of like their existence in our body. And we call them endotoxins, right? Our body, our cells also create, create their own metabolic byproducts that could be categorized as toxins if they need to be excreted and have deleterious effects otherwise, but we'll get into that.

[00:05:28] So when you have someone with chronic Lyme and co infections. Essentially, their symptoms are very literally caused by these byproducts created by these microbes just in, in their existing. So I said that weird, but hopefully that makes sense. So as these microbes proliferate, they release endotoxins within the tissues, and these cause the symptoms of Lyme.

[00:05:53] And they're essentially, think of it like a slow drip, right? You have this slow drip of these endotoxins all the time. And then your immune system, your body, it reacts a whole bunch of inflammatory markers are released, and then you have this, not only the endotoxins being released from the bacteria, or whatever microbes causing symptoms, but now you also have your own body releasing inflammatory markers in response to those, and you just have this kind of basket of chronic inflammation that's causing your symptoms.

[00:06:25] What happens when a patient with these infections is given antibiotics or antimicrobials, meaning it could be pharmaceutical, it could be herbal or botanical it could be something else, like ozone therapy or hyperbaric oxygen therapy even things like fasting. When someone with these infections, not acute necessarily, but when someone has chronic infections they have persistent, disseminated microbial infection that has really spread throughout the body.

[00:06:58] This has been going on, so they have really proliferated. When this person is given antibiotics or antimicrobials that kill the microbes respond by essentially lysing or exploding, and all their endotoxins are released at once. Hopefully, I'm not using too much like crazy jargon in this.

[00:07:18] That's confusing. But so when, so essentially, whether it's a bacteria or a virus, there can even be protozoa, there can be fungal infections, there can be other kinds of parasites, which it's just wild, the amount of different types of infections that a person can get alongside Lyme or outside of Lyme.

[00:07:40] They, so all of these microbes, when they You know, are killed by an anti antibiotic or by an antimicrobial, they literally explode, they lyse, they rupture, and all of those metabolic byproducts that are called endotoxins that we were talking about, they all get released at once, right? So when that happens, you go from having a slow drip, of these endotoxins causing symptoms and very debilitating symptoms, mind you, right?

[00:08:10] Like fatigue, joint pain, breathlessness maybe like dizziness, headaches, light sensitivity, sound sensitivity, all these symptoms that we can have that are so unpleasant when you're getting the slow drip. Now these cells have all ruptured and all of those endotoxins that were causing symptoms get released at once.

[00:08:32] This floods the body with a huge amount of those endotoxins, which then further releases even more major inflammatory markers in the body and ultimately severely worsens the patient symptom picture. This is what a Herx reaction is. Herx reaction is short for Gerrish Herximer reaction, we've talked about this before on the show.

[00:08:54] It's essentially a die off reaction, but it's referred to as a Herx reaction. So while this reaction is common knowledge amongst Lyme literate practitioners, many of those many of you who are listening who have chronic Lyme know exactly what a Herx reaction is and what it feels like.

[00:09:11] Unfortunately, approaches to this, to treating this condition continue to be controversial. And many practitioners who are Lyme literate who have Lyme patients do not emphasize detoxification and in fact they tell their patients when they're going through a HERX that they need to quote unquote push through and that they're going to get worse before they get better. Oftentimes, these patients are given antibiotic prescriptions, antifungal prescriptions, antiviral prescriptions that can be oral, intramuscular, intravenous through a port or a PICC line. And this is controversial. There is not evidence to show that long term antibiotic treatment like this is effective for chronic Lyme patients.

[00:09:57] I will never invalidate anyone who had this work for them, because if it worked for you, that's amazing. I love that. Let's do more research. However, in my experience, and the experience of many people, this is really harmful and a very dangerous practice. And there is a significant body of evidence and literature showing that this long term antibiotic treatment, this pushing people into HERX reactions and through HERX reactions is not effective and actually has the potential for major harm, adverse effects and can even cause You know, quote unquote, I hate saying this, but quote unquote, irreversible damage, right?

[00:10:35] That's, this is well established in the medical literature. And I meant to say this at the top, but if anyone wants references or resources for what I'm sharing in today's episode, I never post them in the show notes, but I am happy to share them because there is a I have a boatload of resources.

[00:10:53] I've collected references like from case reports to clinical trials, et cetera exploring this because I'm really passionate about it. I went through it myself. So if you're ever curious, I'm happy to send you these sources. Going on. So there are numerous case reports of patients and people who have gone through this.

[00:11:12] whose symptoms and quality of life severely decreased with antibiotic treatment and that have actually experienced problems due to this treatment, such as organ damage, seizures, and extremely upsettingly even death. There was a, there is one case report in particular in which a woman had recently given birth.

[00:11:35] She began developing a relapsing fever. She was given antibiotics and she essentially had a herpes reaction that was so severe she passed away. I feel so strongly, and I'm not alone in this, there are a lot of Lime Literate practitioners who I have learned from who stand in agreement with me on this, that We should never ever push a Lyme patient through a Herx reaction.

[00:11:59] A Herx reaction is a great indication that treatment is working. However, it means that you're doing too much and you need to take a step back and focus more on detox. Detoxification, optimizing that, making sure all detox pathways are open, functioning optimally flowing, working really well, takes precedent and priority.

[00:12:21] Before we actually start killing anything off, you want to avoid any one Herx reaction. Having a little bit of a Herx reaction for a day, a couple days, like minor, okay that's fine. Maybe push through that and if on day three it's gone, then you're good to go. But beyond that you don't want to push through a Herx.

[00:12:39] You don't want to cause more inflammation or more damage in the body. We're trying to get away from that. So it's better to go slow with treatment and ensure you are eliminating the waste, eliminating all the endotoxins, the inflammatory molecules that have flooded your body when you began taking antimicrobials.

[00:12:59] So that is just that is so essential to my approach to Lyme and that's really essential to how I was able to successfully treat this condition myself. I was one of these patients who, who went from struggling with Lyme symptoms. I tested positive for Borrelia burgdorferi, Bartonella two different species of Bartonella, Mycoplasma pneumonia several other co infections However, it was absolutely messing with my life and causing a lot of debilitating symptoms, but I was still able to work.

[00:13:34] I was still taking classes. I was still horseback riding multiple days a week. I was still weightlifting multiple days a week. I'm able to go for a two hour kayak if I wanted to. To being pretty much completely homebound, mostly bed bound, unable to stand and cook a meal, unable to walk to my garden without blacking out.

[00:13:55] Literally from just taking a two week course of antibiotics one month and then another two week course of antibiotics a couple weeks later. It's serious. It altered my life for a couple of years and it wasn't until I got on a program that prioritized detoxification first, got really clear with that, prioritized it, and then started working with antimicrobials, this time around focusing on botanical antimicrobials because they are much more chemically complex and For that reason, they are much more efficacious for these chronic infections.

[00:14:29] We have to remember with Borrelia, with Bartonella, with all of these different infections, these are very ancient and intelligent organisms. They are highly adaptable. If you want to treat them with a chemical antibiotic, that is just one singular compound, they are smart, and they will likely outsmart that pharmaceutical.

[00:14:51] They will develop pumps, they will change their form, they will embed themselves more deeply in tissues of the body they will hide inside of your immune system, they will do all kinds of crazy things to evade, they will hide within biofilms. Yeah, the antibiotic can't even penetrate or reach them, they have a lot of ways that they can outsmart our treatments.

[00:15:12] And that's one of the reasons why herbal medicines, botanicals are so effective for these chronic infections. And I'm really excited. I have a friend who's a pathologist who's going to come on in a few weeks and talk a little bit more about this with us, but plants are super, They evolved in the presence of these microbes.

[00:15:29] They are chemically complex. They are very biochemically active in the body. And for this reason, when we take these complex whole plant extracts and different kinds of extracts, we combine multiple plants together in a very targeted systematic way. And then we take those and then we rotate them, let's say every four to six to eight weeks.

[00:15:50] and we're changing it up all the time. The microbes can't adapt to that. It's just a completely different ballgame. So these plant compounds are just particularly suited for these infections. But, so that was a little bit of a, I digress. But, so this is why detoxification is so essential to the treatment of these chronic infections.

[00:16:10] We have to ensure that the organs of biotransformation, aka detoxification, meaning the kidneys, the large intestine, the liver, the skin, the lungs, and the lymphatic system and the pathways of detoxification and elimination are open and functioning optimally. This means not just Honing in and focusing on phase one and two detox in the liver, but also ensuring elimination through the excretory systems phase three.

[00:16:39] So we often see lots of talk about phase one and phase two detox. We hear lots about methylation and methylation defects. There's always like fun little graphics on herbs for phase one and herbs for phase two I don't know if you guys have seen those or if the internet I don't know if this is just me that sees these things.

[00:16:56] I'm sure you see them too like the latest, whatever detox product that does the latest thing. Anyways, so we see this stuff all the time, but we never, I have never seen anything about phase three without intentionally looking for it. And I think that's really interesting because this is the missed ball game.

[00:17:13] And this is one of the things that I think is so remarkable about what Hillary does. And what, some of the other kind of sources that I use to put this together also talk about. So let's get into what I mean by this because phase one, two, and three is very much a stair step program or like a ladder step.

[00:17:33] If you have one of those compromised, then they're all going to be compromised. You need to have all of these detox pathways working optimally. And this really goes for anybody, like in general in life, our bodies evolve these systems very intentionally because we are always dealing with toxins, right?

[00:17:52] Like I said earlier, there are toxins that are a normal part of our own body's metabolism that we need to get rid of. So that's normal. Then we also have things out in the environment, exogenous toxins, things that come from the outside, the external world, and our body needs to process those. Today, of course, with the amount of plastic pollution with the chemicals that we are being exposed to, meaning synthetic chemicals.

[00:18:16] We have a lot, we have a lot higher toxin burden than perhaps we have ever had. And so this topic is even more important. But if you are someone or you know someone who is struggling with chronic Lyme disease, who is struggling with these kinds of chronic infections or chronic conditions it may even autoimmune diseases.

[00:18:35] There are other areas in which this really applies and is important. But like I explained, when we're working with chronic Lyme and co infections, this is absolutely essential because your symptoms are being caused by the endotoxins released by those microbes. That are then causing inflammation.

[00:18:55] That's what causes your symptoms. And when you kill those bugs, when you kill those microbes, they release all those toxins at once because they lice, they explode. And that makes your symptoms so much worse and can cause very serious damage. I am sure that you have experienced this. I have talked with people who have been through this, who have had frightening reactions to their antibiotics.

[00:19:22] I know I did. I definitely was not blacking out prior to the antibiotics. I was afterward. I've met people who had never had a seizure in their life. They took antibiotics, were told to push through their herxing in the sudden onset of seizures. I just don't get it. I don't think that is safe. I can't, of course, speak to any case from like a medical point of view in this context.

[00:19:44] But like I said, there is just, there is a significant body of evidence showing that pushing through herxing is just not not something we should be doing, not something that we should be telling people to do. And as someone who has been through a herx, I think it's really unbelievable that someone who hasn't been through it would tell someone that they just need to push through.

[00:20:04] I think that's really reckless and irresponsible. No one needs to push through that. The treatment should not be worse than the condition itself. There is no problem with going slow and ensuring that we are not doing further damage to the body. So I get really worked up about this because it hits home.

[00:20:20] I've been through it and I just, I don't want to see anyone else going through this when I know that there is a better way. And after listening to this episode, you will understand it's really not that complex or hard to understand why there's a better way and how there's a million things that we can do to optimize phase one, two, and three detox and make it so much easier on our body to slowly treat and get rid of these infectious organisms and bring our body, our little ecosystem back into balance, back into homeostasis. Let's get into phase 1 when we're treating Lyme and co infections, we need to focus on not just phase one and two in the liver, but we also need to focus on phase three, actually taking those compounds that we've processed in phase one and two and excreting them in phase three. So the excretory systems that You know, we mainly focus on and hear about are through, the kidneys and the genitourinary system and the large intestine and the digestive system, both pathways from the liver.

[00:21:30] But there's a little bit more to it than that. So we have to think about how our body cleans up and processes waste and primarily, two of the systems that kind of do that, an organ in a system is the liver and the lymphatic system. And there's a lot of similarities actually between the liver and lymphatic system.

[00:21:50] If you're not, Familiar with the lymphatic system. The lymphatic system is essentially part of our immune system is very much is involved in the case of chronic Lyme Borrelia bacteria have a fascinating method for actually penetrating and living inside of lymph nodes as a way of bypassing the immune system.

[00:22:08] But again, I digress. So the liver and system, liver and limb system are very important for, processing toxins, processing foreign pathogens, cancerous cells, all kinds of stuff that we want to clean up in the blood, clean up out of the body, out of the tissues, process and eliminate.

[00:22:31] But what's unique about the liver and the lymphatic system is they don't actually have their own exit pathway. There is no way to just excrete liver. There's nothing that the liver can directly excrete out or the lymph can directly excrete out. They have to recruit and work with other systems.

[00:22:47] That is really important to think about, right? We can give our liver all the things, all the supplements, all the nutrients for phase one and phase two, but the liver still needs to work with the skin, the kidneys, the bowels, to actually eliminate all that stuff it processed. And the lymphatic system as well.

[00:23:04] So while it's really important to address these internal structures, We also need to ensure that the waste that is processed and generated by these internal structures is then emptied out via the sweat, urine, stool, and the breath. And this is something that is, is referred to in traditional Chinese medicine as interior releasing and exterior releasing.

[00:23:29] It's a really It's a really interesting concept and we can't ever like directly translate any traditional approach to medicine to our current medical understanding because it's not exactly the same. But I just wanted to mention that because it's really fun and interesting. So this is something that Hillary talks about all the time.

[00:23:50] There was another great lecture I was listening to the other day from a conference put on by Spectra Cell Laboratories, and the man giving the speech was Dr. Ron Grabowski. He was saying, we, we can't just look at phase one and two. We also have to look at phase three when we're supporting our clients with detox approaches.

[00:24:10] And I just appreciate these practitioners so much because I just don't feel like I hear many people talking about this. I think it's really a missing piece and modern approaches to medicine in general. to like chronic illnesses, complex chronic conditions in general, but especially with regards to Lyme disease.

[00:24:28] So both phase one and phase two occur in the liver due to enzymatic reactions that biotransform both endogenous and exogenous toxic molecules. So Phase one and phase two, these are processes that happen in the liver via enzymes that basically transform all kinds of toxins, right? Endogenous, meaning ones that come from within our body and exogenous, meaning ones that come from outside the body.

[00:24:57] So you may like already be familiar or not. Enzymes are just basically catalysts to help reactions move along, right? There's all kinds of things that happen in the body and Enzymes are what make those things happen. Enzymes are what make our metabolism go. It's what makes everything happen.

[00:25:15] Phase 1 and phase 2 basically both occur due to a series of different kinds of enzymatic reactions. Phase three occurs in the liver and in the blood brain barrier and in the gut where proteins transport substances from phase one and phase two to be excreted. So there are different genetic polymorphisms or genetic alterations that can occur in phase one, two, and three that basically alter how functional, how like effective and optimally run these pathways are.

[00:25:51] And can basically compromise detoxification. The one that everyone kind of talks about is the MTHFR mutation which is part of the methylation pathway in Phase 2. But that's only one of them. We're gonna talk, we're gonna just like briefly run over some of the other ones that occur in Phase 2, because methylation isn't the only one.

[00:26:13] So during Phase 1, Harmful, lipid soluble molecules are basically transformed into water soluble intermediates that will be easier to excrete. So phase one reactions basically occur largely due to cytochrome P450 enzymes. I know this is a lot of like scientific jargon, but just bear with me. Hopefully hopefully this will still be helpful, even if you're like, what the heck is, what the heck is she saying?

[00:26:40] It will all make sense in the end, trust me. So phase one. takes these lipid soluble molecules and starts making them more water soluble into intermediates that will basically be easier to excrete. And the enzymes that facilitate this are mostly the cytochrome P450 enzymes. This is really important because a lot of medications and even herbs work along this pathway.

[00:27:04] So these reactions I'm not, I don't think I'm going to go through each of the chemical reactions but there's different chemical reactions that kind of occur in this phase like hydroxylation, oxidation, reduction, a few more, ultimately resulting in what are called reactive oxygen species. So these are inflammatory compounds.

[00:27:23] So ultimately, all of that to say, at the end of phase one, These compounds, these intermediates that are produced that are the end product of phase one. They're still very bioactive. And so what, where the problem can occur is if phase one is functioning really well. But then you have a weak or a slow phase two, maybe due to genetic alterations, nutrient deficiency, whatever it might be the end products of phase one can start to accumulate.

[00:27:53] And if they accumulate, this can then cause inflammation and damage to cells, to their DNA and RNA and to tissues in the body. So obviously not optimal. Phase two reactions takes that if it's functioning well, Phase two takes these end products from phase one that could be harmful. But if we're functioning optimally, phase two takes those end products takes them in, basically adds on some chemical groups to make these even more water soluble that then can be sent to In phase 3, excreted via sweat, urine, or bile via the skin, the kidneys, or the colon.

[00:28:34] In phase 2, this is the conjugation phase. There are many conjugation pathways. Like I said before methylation is The popular one that we hear about a lot, but in addition to methylation we have other conjugation pathways as well. There's also sulfation there's glutathione conjugation, amino acid conjugation, and a couple of others.

[00:28:54] And I think this is really important to mention and as a side note, I'm very curious about this. I know from genetic testing I did around the time that I was diagnosed that I had a few mutations along the sulfation pathway, and at the time it was so above my head, I had no idea really what they were talking about.

[00:29:14] But now, this is something I really dig into a lot in my research, because I'm very curious to see more research in this area, if this is part of why some people get sick with chronic Lyme, like myself, and other people get tick bites and they're like completely fine, or they do two weeks of doxy and they're fine or they do nothing and they're fine, right?

[00:29:34] I'm really curious about, could it be genetic alterations in some of these pathways that are what triggers someone getting really sick with chronic Lyme? Or someone reacting very poorly to antibiotics like I did. Because that would be a great screen test, right? For a million things.

[00:29:54] This could even go way beyond that, but I won't because I don't want this episode to be 80 hours long. But I just think that's so curious. Such an interesting area of research. But anyway, so that's phase two. There's these conjugation pathways methylation, sulfation, et cetera. And they basically take the end products from phase one.

[00:30:11] It goes through phase two. And then, we get to phase three, which is the excretion and elimination phase. So phase one and two go very hand in hand with phase three. And there's a variety of nutrients and herbs that can really help support phase one and phase two. But like I said, if you have either of these phases compromised, that's a problem.

[00:30:32] If phase one is just like pumping, working really efficiently, producing all these end products. And phase two is not, you're going to basically get a backup of really inflammatory compounds, which is going to be a problem. And the same goes if you have, let's say phase one is working well, phase two is working well, but phase three, which we'll get to is not working well again.

[00:30:54] You have a backup of all of these products that can potentially cause a lot of harm and damage, especially when you have someone with chronic Lyme who's being treated and is now being flooded with these are supposed to be functionally optimally in everyday life, helping you just detoxify stuff from everyday life.

[00:31:10] But when you have an illness like this, and your toxic burden is way above normal, if these aren't functioning well, you are not going to feel well. You are going to get really sick. So that's why this is important. So there's lots of nutrients that can support phase one and phase two. Phase one is and the, and it's not just actually, I should say, it's not just that these nutrients support these pathways.

[00:31:35] It's that these nutrients are essential for these pathways to function. So if these pathways aren't functioning optimally then we have a problem. And. Yeah, so we don't want to be nutrient deficient because nutrient deficiency is going to significantly impact whether these pathways are working well.

[00:31:56] So nutrients that support phase one enzymes include vitamin A, vitamins B3, flavonoids, phospholipids, glutathione, and branched chain amino acids. Additionally, there's a ton of herbs that help with phase one. These include chamomile, chicory, dandelion, garlic, green tea, honeybush, milk thistle, peppermint, rosemary, and turmeric, right?

[00:32:21] So many. So that's really cool. So we need these nutrients. For this, for phase one to, to work, these enzymes cannot function if they do not have access to these nutrients, right? And these herbs help optimize it as well. So phase two has its own kind of list of nutrients that are needed to support it.

[00:32:41] So these include an acetylcysteine, cysteine, glutamine, glycine, methionine, and taurine. And additionally, I just wrote down the same herbs because I think it's fun. To me, it's fun to look at the herbs that are going to support both, because like two birds, one stone. So herbs that help with phase two include algae, gotta love algae, dandelion, garlic, green tea, honeybush, milk thistle again, rosemary, and turmeric.

[00:33:05] So those nutrients are absolutely essential, right? The enzymes of phase one and phase two, these pathways cannot work without Those nutrients and then these herbs really help to optimize it on top of that and then have, tons of other benefits beside so let's dig into phase three. So phase three is really, I can't say phase three is the most important because that, they're all important.

[00:33:35] But if phase three isn't working, then you're going to just have a big backup from phase one and two. I, it's a gross example, but the best example I can think of is if your toilet is clogged and you keep filling it up, it's going to overflow with crud and it's not going to be pretty. It's not going to be nice.

[00:33:53] And that's how phase one, two and three works. If you are not optimizing phase three, if you were, if you're not just optimizing, but a phase three isn't working. You're like, you can take all the milk thistle in the world, all the turmeric in the world, right? You can take all the multivitamins and glutathione sprays and whatever.

[00:34:12] But If you are not actually eliminating and excreting the waste that is produced via phase one and two detox, then you're going to have a problem. You're going to have a big backup of toxins that can potentially cause problems. So phase three basically involves a transport system of proteins in the body like P glycoproteins that move toxic substances from the cells and into the organs of excretion.

[00:34:38] So when phase three is compromised, these unwanted compounds basically accumulate in the cells and lead to inflammation and toxicity, right? Pretty obvious. So unfortunately, when endotoxemia occurs, like when a Herx reaction or a die off occurs, this can inhibit the activity of these transport proteins further compromising detoxification.

[00:35:02] So it's a little bit of a feedback loop where if you're having a really intense Herx reaction, this can be so inflammatory and so problematic. It can further inhibit the transport proteins that really facilitate phase 3 detox. So that is a problem. So that's why it's really important to optimize phase 3 detox before you ever start antimicrobial therapy.

[00:35:26] Antimicrobial therapy is not step one. It seems like it is. It's very seductive to get trapped into this idea of Oh, I have chronic infections. We need to kill everything. But that's like seeing a forest and there being, like an infestation of one bug and saying, let's burn down the whole forest, right?

[00:35:44] That just doesn't, that's not the ideal approach, right? So we want to be a little bit smarter about it. So optimizing phase three is, it's an area that has not been fully explored to its potential. Thankfully there are some amazing practitioners out there who are optimizing it, but, I think it's in part because excreting waste, like going to the bathroom, getting really sweaty is not necessarily the most glamorous topic.

[00:36:09] And, oftentimes treatments that are not mainstream, or mainstream in the West anyways, are dismissed as invalid. These things can be ignored. But, truthfully they're completely valid. They've been around for a really long time. Like one, one thing that has really taken off and gotten popular is saunas, right?

[00:36:31] Because it works. It helps people feel good to sweat it out. And that's not even like one of the main excretory pathways. However, it is really important. So going back to those these practices include things like deep breathing really getting thing, deep breathing is beneficial on many levels, but the lungs are actually one of the excretory pathways, interestingly enough.

[00:36:53] So deep breathing, moving the body and heavily sweating, drinking plenty of fluids to promote urination and just making sure you're going to the bathroom regularly. And perhaps most importantly, and controversially, colon cleansing. I avoided it for years because, like I said, not the most glamorous topic.

[00:37:13] We don't grow up learning that's a normal thing. But colon cleansing is very normal. It's like brushing your teeth or taking a shower. And especially if you are someone who is dealing with this high level of toxicity, you may not be able to tolerate any kind of antimicrobial treatment without optimizing all of these practices.

[00:37:33] So for the chronic Lyme patient who is often highly toxic and ideally being treated with antimicrobials to address the infections, doing all of these things and especially emptying the bowels every day. can be profoundly helpful with symptom reduction and prevention of HERX reactions.

[00:37:52] This can be attested to by so many chronic Lyme patients. I have heard this from so many people where they're like, it makes no sense, but just when I use the restroom, I feel so much better afterwards. Or when I get a good sweat in, I feel so much better afterwards. And this is part of why, because truly the body is so overloaded with these endotoxins and inflammatory compounds created by the microbes.

[00:38:17] And then in response to the microbes, that anything we can do to just regularly be eliminating and keeping the pathways open is so important. And again, this is where this kind of Chinese medicine component of keeping the rivers of the body open, keeping these energetic pathways open really is absolutely essential.

[00:38:38] And I really love herbs for this as well, because there are so many herbs that can help. To further optimize phase three and the different aspects of phase three of actually carrying toxins out of the body So a really fun one and there's a plant anise hyssop or agastache funiculum. It's native here in the united states it's a good gorgeous mint family plant with these big purple blooms.

[00:39:02] And it is what's called a diaphoretic. So it encourages sweating. There's many others that are diaphoretic as well. Elder Flower is a great diaphoretic. Jero is a diaphoretic, but so it makes you sweat. So it's really helpful, right? If you're going to go do something like a sauna treatment or you're going to go sit in a hot tub or a steam room because it will help make you sweat.

[00:39:24] It will help encourage sweating. Then we also have herbs, right? That there's all types of different herbs that help encourage regular bowel movements, right? We have bulking agents like psyllium seed, things that are rich in fiber. Then we also have things that are prebiotic and mucilage rich marshmallow root. We have aloe vera, there's lots of ways to help encourage regular bowel movements. Then we also have herbs that are slightly diuretic, not diuretic like a medication diuretic, but just something that's much more gentle just helping encourage healthy, genitourinary flow and urine production and excretion.

[00:39:59] So herbs are just really cool because they can help, they're, there can be really gentle and mild herbs that you're just consuming every day as part of your everyday life in teas or, sprinkled in your oatmeal or however, in applesauce that help even further optimize phase three by targeting these different avenues.

[00:40:19] And then we can employ different practices too. I remember when I first tried lymphatic massage, I hadn't prioritize a detoxification regimen yet. So just getting lymphatic massage I would flare up and this is of course after I took the antibiotics so my body was like already in an alarm state.

[00:40:37] But many of you might be experiencing this as well where you go and do a lymphatic massage or maybe you just do some fasting. And basically as the body gets things moving, as the tissues get moving or even doing foam roller would trigger this for me, or like a percussion gun. As the body generates and gets things moving as it's processing this waste.

[00:40:57] Again, if phase three is not working well, this can just cause such inflammation and worsening of symptoms. So that's where, all these other tools are wonderful, like massage in movement and fasting, but all of this, all of these supplements, all of these approaches really are not going to be effective without phase three working optimally.

[00:41:18] Your body has to be able to eliminate and get all of this waste out. And I just wanted to talk about this and some of the science kind of behind phase one, two, and three, because I think there's just, and rightfully there's a lot of hesitance to getting into these. These cleansing and detoxification practices.

[00:41:39] And like I said, myself, I knew about colon cleansing for, I'm not exaggerating over 10 years, 10 years before I was willing to try it. Cause I was like I will try everything under the sun before I'm going to try that. But it's really not that big of a deal. It's just so unusual. It's just not something that we are normal.

[00:41:58] That's normalized in our culture. But when people get really sick and they're desperate and they're willing to try anything and then you see how effective it is and they realize it's actually not that big of a deal, I would much rather be doing something at home in the privacy of my own bathroom than, having to go into a facility like that is really uncomfortable and doing these kind of intense and crazy expensive treatments that may or may not work or may make me feel a million times worse.

[00:42:25] All of that to say, prioritizing detoxification was absolutely a pillar of my own successful treatment from these different chronic infections. And as well as recovering from the antibiotics that made me so much more ill than the disease itself. My recovery was such a struggle before, and once I found a practitioner, Who understood the importance of detoxification and who actually had her whole own framework and taught me how to make it a priority.

[00:42:54] How you literally recovered within months, like she kept saying six months, six months, and after decades of symptoms. And then years of illness, post antibiotics, truly within months, I started to feel completely different. And it's only just been like a year and a month anniversary of being on the antimicrobials and I'm literally in a completely different place in life, able to do things that I couldn't do pre antibiotics or even when I was like, a teenager because this stuff was that, it was going on for such a long time before I got diagnosed.

[00:43:31] So it's unbelievable to me that just prioritizing detoxification enabled me to treat these infections. And then within a matter of months, I have reached a level of health that I can genuinely say I've never experienced in my entire life. So I just want to share this story because this is what I do now.

[00:43:51] I am currently in grad school. I am two months away from starting my doctorate program. I'm in two different mentorships. I am seeing clients in my own private practice. And I am, I'm still like, I'm in a wholly new place, but I am still like on the tail end of treating Lyme and really having to look at my body.

[00:44:10] And this whole new way of now looking at optimizing my nutrition more for exercise and physical activity and really changing my approach to being optimizing like optimal function versus addressing pathology because I'm just in this wholly new place. And I'm doing all this stuff for work and school because this, this is my biggest passion.

[00:44:30] I have been through it. I know what it's like to be really ill and to not have people believe you or understand that you are not well, that something is not right and that you need help. I always lead with compassion. And if you're living with this, if you are going through it, trust me when I say I, I have been there.

[00:44:52] I know what you are feeling. At least the best I can as someone who has been through it, who has had multiple infections and all kinds of, ways that it really impacted my life, my relationships, my career my family anyone who has had chronic Lyme or a loved one with chronic Lyme knows it it yeah it's life altering in, in some pretty indescribable ways.

[00:45:15] And so this is just my biggest passion. This is what I am dedicating my career to. This is why I Sit at my desk, I don't know, the late hours in the night and I'm just, So dedicated, because I know that you can get better. If you are going through this, I know you can get better. I've been there.

[00:45:33] I was sick for literally decades, so I do not remember being well. I remember missing so much school and childhood, having all these weird symptoms with joints popping and cracking and being hypermobile and all this weird stuff. And here, 30 years later I was able to treat it pretty quickly once I found an amazing person and in a framework that actually made sense and an approach that made sense.

[00:46:00] And I'm doing what I do because I want to help you get better too. So if this is you, please feel free to reach out to me, shoot me a DM book a free 15 minute like chat with me to tell me what's going on, how you're feeling. If I don't feel we're a good fit or you don't feel we're a good fit, I have references I can refer you to.

[00:46:18] If you are in a tough situation, whatever your situation may be, please feel free to reach out to me. This is, my entire life is geared towards helping other people who are going through this. Because I think, Lyme disease is on the rise. For a reason, this is what Planet Spoonie is all about.

[00:46:37] The things that we are experiencing in our bodies are a direct reflection of what's happening to the planet. Lyme disease is a wonderful example of this, with the loss of indigenous peoples managing the lands and the ecosystems. We lost major predators, this completely altered the fauna of our ecosystems, which altered the flora of our ecosystems, then we have, a loss of controlled burns, we have increased temperatures, we have, like, all of these different factors which are leading to increased tick populations and then, we're living in an environment where we are inundated with toxins all of the time.

[00:47:16] We potentially have these genetic polymorphisms we don't know about. We might have nutrient deficiencies and then when we get bit by these increased tick populations and we already have a high toxic burden because of modern life, You get Lyme. And unfortunately, the testing is not that great.

[00:47:33] People still think Lyme only exists in the Northeast. I hear all the time. I've heard multiple people this summer alone tell me they were bitten in San Diego, but the doctor says Lyme, Lyme doesn't exist here. You don't need to take antibiotics. That is not correct. Borrelia exists everywhere.

[00:47:51] There are hundreds of species of Borrelia. We only have tests for a few different species. We've only studied a handful of those species. It's a complex topic and ultimately it's not something you want to mess around with, but it's completely something you can heal and recover from. I believe that to my core and my bones.

[00:48:09] It's just a matter of figuring out how to You know, what the right approach is for you, how to make it work, and what this whole episode was about, optimizing and prioritizing detoxification. I won't keep going, because I know this was a mouthful, I know I used a lot of scientific terminology, I really tried to tone it down a little bit.

[00:48:29] Hopefully it still made sense to you and hopefully you enjoyed it if you stuck with me this far. Thank you so so much for being with me here today. I love you guys. I appreciate you so much. It is so cool to see how many people are downloading and listening to these episodes. Especially the ones focused on Lyme, I really just want to be here for you, I want to be that resource that I so desperately needed when I was at the darkest and lowest points of my life, wondering what was wrong with me, and not knowing that it was like, oh, a ton of infections just going ham in my body and I had no idea.

[00:49:06] I want to be that for you. You can get better. Truly, you can get better. This earth could get better. The solutions are out there and we can work together to make this happen. This is what I am here for and there are so many other amazing people out there doing this work as well. So I just wanted to say thank you and I love you and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

[00:49:28] And remember, our bodies are a direct reflection of the ecosystems we inhabit. And just like this earth, our bodies know how to heal.